Yes, all who read this thread know you are not interested in what Scripture says.
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Who Justifieth the Ungodly
- Thread starter brightfame52
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You did when you said you rip verses from the context within which God has set the verse in order to "highlight the truth found in the context".
God does not need you to rip a verse from the context within which He, as the Author of Scripture, has placed it.
Do you even know the meaning of the word "context"?
the text or speech that comes immediately before and after a particular phrase or piece of text and that influence how it is used and what it means
So you rip a verse from the context in which God placed the verse in order to influence what the verse means ... then you project your erroneous dogma onto the meaning of the verse. That is improper interpretation of Scripture.
I deny that you are "saying truth is found within the context of scripture" because you continuously rip a verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verse.brightfame52 said:
You then attempt to align the verse with your dogma. That is improper interpretation of Scripture. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma does not align with Scripture, get rid of your dogma.
If you truly believed "truth is found within the context of scripture", you would not rip verses from their context.
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John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
here's a newsflash for ya, brightfame52 ... the Lord Jesus Christ arose from the dead is truth even if no one believes it.brightfame52 said:
The reason the Lord Jesus Christ arose from the dead is because is was not possible that death could hold Him:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
The justification of mankind is wholly through God's mercy, grace, lovingkindness. Death had no power to hold the Lord Jesus Christ.
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I believe you believe that.
However, it is clear from Scripture that faith is not works:
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
But you cannot believe the simple truth of Scripture because your dogma does not align with Scripture.
Do not attempt to align Scripture to your dogma. Align your dogma with Scripture. Wherever your dogma does not align, get rid of the dogma. Don't try to fit Scripture to your erroneous dogma.
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Nope ... my shining the light of Scripture on your erroneous dogma does not equal me discarding Scripture.
Your dogma crumbles under the slightest scrutinization. You have built upon a foundation of shifting sands which cannot withstand under the light of Scripture. I'm not going there with you, brightfame52.
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
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if you were "paying close attention to what the verse is saying within its context", you wouldn't be "Lifting a verse from wthin its context".Do you even stop to think about what you are saying before you click the "Post reply" button?
My holding you to the context within which a verse sits does not equal me "avoiding" what you claim.brightfame52 said:
Me holding you to the context within which a verse sits exposes the shifting sands of the foundation of your erroneous dogma.
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The word "if" is not in the text. It was added to the text.
The words if we believe are translated from the Greek word pisteuō. The words “if we” were added to the text by the translators.
The word pisteuō Is in the present tense which means it denotes the present time (i.e. at the time the person believes).
Additionally, the word "imputed" (Greek logizomai) is also in the present tense.
So Romans 4:24 tells us that at the time a person believes, God imputes righteousness to him or her ... right when the person believes ... not before, but when.
If a person does not believe, then righteousness is not imputed to him/her.
Nope. Righteousness is imputed at the time a person believes.brightfame said:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.brightfame52 said:
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Since you seem to be tiring of having to explain something "over and over and over", the best thing for you to do is align your dogma to Scripture.brightfame52 said:
Your continual habit of taking a verse out of the context within which the Author of Scripture (God) has placed it, is improper. Leave the verse in its context and believe Scripture just as it is written.
Romans 4:
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
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Nope. According to 1 Cor 2:6, Paul and those who were more mature (perfect = of full age, mature) spoke of deeper spiritual truths ... the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom according to 1 Cor 2:7:
1 Corinthians 2:
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [of full age, mature]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom [deeper spiritual truths than the gospel], which God ordained before the world unto our glory
I know your dogma will not allow you to consider that the gospel is a much more simple truth that is understood by mankind and further that once believed, the born again one is to grow up and mature to the point of understanding the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.
However, your rendering of 1 Cor 2:13-14 is in error.
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One issue with your dogma is you believe faith on the part of mankind is "works" and I have shown you that God specifically tells us faith is not works.
That is truth you have not allowed God to work in your heart. You argue against God when you insist faith = works.
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The words you add to Scripture do not change the truth of Scripture into your rendering.
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Contrary to Justification by Grace !
It would be totally contrary to Justification by Grace Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Titus 3:7
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Neither would it be freely, if it Justification, if its conditioned upon faith, for then it would make that a condition which is also required by the Law, for it is written Matt 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Who can deny that Jesus here specifically Identifies Faith as one of the weightier matters of the Law ? And that its something done !
So for those of you that teach Justification before God by mans faith, you are teaching Justification by doing one of the weightier matters of the Law and there is no escaping that conclusion, and so must be in contradiction of Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin , as well as contradicting Justification by Grace !
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It would be totally contrary to Justification by Grace Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Titus 3:7
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Neither would it be freely, if it Justification, if its conditioned upon faith, for then it would make that a condition which is also required by the Law, for it is written Matt 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Who can deny that Jesus here specifically Identifies Faith as one of the weightier matters of the Law ? And that its something done !
So for those of you that teach Justification before God by mans faith, you are teaching Justification by doing one of the weightier matters of the Law and there is no escaping that conclusion, and so must be in contradiction of Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin , as well as contradicting Justification by Grace !
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See I have never denied Justification by Faith, thats a false conclusion you declare or imply of me. I believe it, yet I believe it scripturally, Faith is given to them who have been Justified by the Blood of Christ to evidence it to their mind and heart. You on the other hand take and make faith an act the natural man performs in order to meet a condition so God will justify them. Thats works, even works of the flesh. Thats not Justification by Faith.
renewed
You read scripture without understanding and corrupt the word of Truth, you turn a grace given in Salvation, the Gift of Faith, you turn it into a quality found in the fallen dead flesh of man, and make its performance a condition of salvation, thats glorying in the flesh.
Yet you deny Justification by Grace and condition it on the act of man, mans act of Faith, the unregenerate, spiritually dead sinner, you condition Justification before God on his or her faith. So you deny Justification by Grace.
And so you have faith as the fruit or work of the flesh, therefore conditioning Justification on the fruit or work of the flesh.
Which truth you deny, because you say man in the flesh can please God with human faith, contrary to scripture Rom 8:8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
The unregenerate are in the flesh, yet you say they can please God with Faith from their flesh.
You read scripture without understanding and corrupt the word of Truth, you turn a grace given in Salvation, the Gift of Faith, you turn it into a quality found in the fallen dead flesh of man, and make its performance a condition of salvation, thats glorying in the flesh.
Yet you deny Justification by Grace and condition it on the act of man, mans act of Faith, the unregenerate, spiritually dead sinner, you condition Justification before God on his or her faith. So you deny Justification by Grace.
And so you have faith as the fruit or work of the flesh, therefore conditioning Justification on the fruit or work of the flesh.
Which truth you deny, because you say man in the flesh can please God with human faith, contrary to scripture Rom 8:8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
The unregenerate are in the flesh, yet you say they can please God with Faith from their flesh.
renewed
Antichrist simply means against Christ, there are many false doctrines that are against Christ and the way of Salvation. I believe what you teach is against Christ and the way of Salvation by Him. You deny that His death alone Justified before God those He died for, Gods elect. You teach that many souls for whom Christ died, and purged away their sins, will yet go to hell for their sins. Thats against Christ !
Antichrist simply means against Christ, there are many false doctrines that are against Christ and the way of Salvation. I believe what you teach is against Christ and the way of Salvation by Him. You deny that His death alone Justified before God those He died for, Gods elect. You teach that many souls for whom Christ died, and purged away their sins, will yet go to hell for their sins. Thats against Christ !
renewed
Yes it is what you believe even though you scared to publicly admit it word for word. Yet you believe the fallen human flesh of man has this Faith in them that pleases God, and when they use it and believe, God will Justify them. Tell me you dont believe that.
Yes it is what you believe even though you scared to publicly admit it word for word. Yet you believe the fallen human flesh of man has this Faith in them that pleases God, and when they use it and believe, God will Justify them. Tell me you dont believe that.
renewed
Faith here has Christ as its object, for Faith isnt the believer righteousness, but embraces the one who is the believers righteousness. See Christ is the believers righteousness according to 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
See thats your problem, you not understanding the things of God, interpret Paul here as saying mans act of faith is counted as righteousness. So you believe the unregenerate sinner, dead in sin, in the flesh, has a faith righteousness that justified them before God. So you believe man is Justified by his own righteousness which is heresy !
The difference between you and I, my Faith sees Christ as my righteousness, having been imputed, you see your faith counted to you as righteousness, big difference.
Faith here has Christ as its object, for Faith isnt the believer righteousness, but embraces the one who is the believers righteousness. See Christ is the believers righteousness according to 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
See thats your problem, you not understanding the things of God, interpret Paul here as saying mans act of faith is counted as righteousness. So you believe the unregenerate sinner, dead in sin, in the flesh, has a faith righteousness that justified them before God. So you believe man is Justified by his own righteousness which is heresy !
The difference between you and I, my Faith sees Christ as my righteousness, having been imputed, you see your faith counted to you as righteousness, big difference.
you are so embroiled in propping up your dogma that you wholly miss the point!Do you know what is the purpose of the law, brightfame52?
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
The purpose of the law is to lead mankind to Messiah. The keeping of the law was never intended as a means of salvation ... salvation is wholly by grace through faith. That is clearly written in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
In Matthew 23:23, Jesus pointed out that the scribes and pharisees were trying to keep the law in an attempt to gain salvation and, in so doing, they missed the whole point of the law because the law pointed to their need for Him.
Since you read Scripture through the lens of your erroneous dogma, you also completely miss the point Jesus made and you have now stated faith = law.
Additionally, you now have the Lord Jesus Christ claiming that "faith is works", which completely contradicts what is written in Scripture. If there is any contradiction in Scripture, the whole Bible falls apart.
If there appears to be contradiction between your dogma and what you see written in Scripture, you are to let go of your erroneous dogma. If there appears to be contradiction in Scripture, you must first look to your own lack of understanding what is written as the issue. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.
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