When Jesus 'broke the rules'

[lenna]

1.) I'm thinking that perhaps the spirit of the Law trumps the letter of the Law.

2.) In all the movies, Jesus made his markings in the sand.

well you are headed in the right direction

not with the movies LOL!

 

[Tararose]

This question leads my mind to the story about the women caught in adultery that said according to Mosaic law, she should be stoned.

What Jesus did, after they tried to trip him up has always been a little baffling to me until, I heard someone else explain the verses in a different way.
Jesus pretended like he didn’t hear them and starting writing in the sand. Anything written in sand will disappear when the wind comes.

In a nutshell, the law was not written to point the finger at others wrongdoings, it was written for personal growth within.

Jesus did not actually break the law of God - in this instance or any other.
They wanted to Trick Him. Had he stoned her or Said ok stone her, he would have actually broken the law.... of course if he had said let her go free it would also have appeared he was breaking the law of Moses. This was because of how they presented Their question, very cunningly- or so they thought. Jesus as usual answered the matter of their hearts and showed mercy - all
Without breaking one letter of the law of God.
Here we see the actual law in question.
Deuteronomy 22:22-24
“If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman. So you shall purge the evil from Israel. “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Without the man she was committing the offence with, there was simply no evidence of their claim and the requirement of the law was not met. Nowhere does it say It is ok to stone only one of the adulterers. If she was, as they said, caught “in the act”, surely the man had been right there with her. Why had they not brought him also to be stoned? This was a deliberate attempt to trap Jesus into saying something they could twist as Jesus speaking or acting against the law.

Basically they were pushing him to be seen to Let a sinful Woman get away with breaking the law, Or To be seen to break the law in stoning her without the man - without the required evidence and requirements of the very law in question.
He wisely put the ball back in their courts.

Jesus could not and did not break the law of God or He could not have been our sacrifice.

 

[lenna]

Christianity does not consider the Talmud to be inspired in the same sense that the 66 books of the biblical canon are “God breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). While some of the teachings from the Talmud may be “compatible” with biblical teachings, the same can be said for many different writings from many different religions. For the Christian, the study of the Talmud can be a great way to learn more about Jewish tradition, history, and interpretation, but the Talmud is not to be considered the authoritative Word of God.

it doesn't matter and is just another rabbit trail in an already (sadly) infested nest of lthem

sigh

 

[lenna]

ok well, I thought the title might be a bit provocative, but I truly did not expect the complete and bogus reactive and ridiculous posts that followed implying heresy and God knows what else

anyway

obviously Jesus never sinned and that needs to be made clear. anyone claiming I said that is reading INTO what I posted

I just didn't think I would come back to such a clamor after posting this yesterday.

 

[oyster67]

Jesus was sinless and I have never said otherwise

Amen! This was Jesus saying to them "I have broke the yoke!". "You are free from those old Pharisees!" This was Good News!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This question leads my mind to the story about the women caught in adultery that said according to Mosaic law, she should be stoned.

What Jesus did, after they tried to trip him up has always been a little baffling to me until, I heard someone else explain the verses in a different way.
Jesus pretended like he didn’t hear them and starting writing in the sand. Anything written in sand will disappear when the wind comes.

In a nutshell, the law was not written to point the finger at others wrongdoings, it was written for personal growth within.

Your right it was not written to point fingers. But it was not written for personal growth either

It was written to prove all under sin. So when Christ came they would see him (the schoolmaster)

 

[Roughsoul1991]

it doesn't matter and is just another rabbit trail in an already (sadly) infested nest of lthem

sigh

I personally do not trust oral traditions and something that is basically a debate book with subjective interpretations. To say supposedly it was passed down by Moses already throws a red flag up. Either you know or you don't. Nothing in scripture speaks of such outward knowledge.

 

[lenna]

lenna, post: 4397820, member: 297965"]oh no. on the Sabbath. the key to understanding this passage without taking sides with the Pharisees, is to understand the reason for the law given to Moses to give to the Israelites. reading the passage above today (read the whole chapter even better) we say we see the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, but what about those who insist Jesus was sinless and never broke any portion of the law?

so again here is a portion of the op indicating the hypocrisy of the Pharisees...religious leaders in Israel....who were following Jesus around and looking for something to condemn Him about and use against Him. (as I said reading the whole chapter gives more detail)
now when I wrote those who insist Jesus was sinless, I was referring to the obvious ways Jesus broke the law in that He healed on 'the Sabbath' and His statements indicating He considered Himself equal with God and His telling people there sins were forgiven

At every stage of those things, He was found 'guilty' of breaking the law, but not the law God always intended, which He illustrated all through His earthly life.

The 10 commandments were summed up what Jesus said here:

34And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

37Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’f 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22

the 10 commandments are about love. loving God with your entire being and loving your neighbor as yourself sums up the 10 commandments. if you read them, you will note that each one tells a person how to act/respond to OTHERS and most of all their obligation, but love really, to God

so in summary, Jesus did not break the law. He was sinless. He exhibited the intent of the law. the law by the time the Pharisees were making their rounds, had become far more than what had been originally handed down



Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You traverse land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Matthew 23:15

 

[lenna]

if I had been given half a chance, I would have summed it up like this:

1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” 3He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him:
4how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.
7And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

there it is

God actually desires mercy. He prefers mercy to sacrifice.

Jesus is lord of the Sabbath

further teaching in the NT tells us that Jesus is our Sabbath rest

I wanted to concentrate on that (silly me) and discuss Jesus and how He fulfilled all of the law and showed us the true intent of the law

 

[SoulWeaver]

I just didn't think I would come back to such a clamor after posting this yesterday.

That's cute...

 

[lenna]

Amen! This was Jesus saying to them "I have broke the yoke!". "You are free from those old Pharisees!" This was Good News!

He still does it today and wants very much to do so today

I am a firm believer in sanctification. we have the goal before us (as Paul even stated) and we run our race to use Paul's terms. Jesus sets us free from the trap of expectations (religious weights around our neck that God never intended) and false guilt

 

[lenna]

That's cute...

or stoned to death apparently

 

[SoulWeaver]

or stoned to death apparently

Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition...
Cardinal... give the rack... a TURN...

 

[lenna]

Jesus did not actually break the law of God - in this instance or any other.
They wanted to Trick Him. Had he stoned her or Said ok stone her, he would have actually broken the law.... of course if he had said let her go free it would also have appeared he was breaking the law of Moses. This was because of how they presented Their question, very cunningly- or so they thought. Jesus as usual answered the matter of their hearts and showed mercy - all
Without breaking one letter of the law of God.
Here we see the actual law in question.
Deuteronomy 22:22-24
“If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman. So you shall purge the evil from Israel. “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Without the man she was committing the offence with, there was simply no evidence of their claim and the requirement of the law was not met. Nowhere does it say It is ok to stone only one of the adulterers. If she was, as they said, caught “in the act”, surely the man had been right there with her. Why had they not brought him also to be stoned? This was a deliberate attempt to trap Jesus into saying something they could twist as Jesus speaking or acting against the law.

Basically they were pushing him to be seen to Let a sinful Woman get away with breaking the law, Or To be seen to break the law in stoning her without the man - without the required evidence and requirements of the very law in question.
He wisely put the ball back in their courts.

Jesus could not and did not break the law of God or He could not have been our sacrifice.

kindly read my recent posts for clarification

thank you

 

[lenna]

I think it is dangerous to say that Jesus broke the law. Remember, our salvation depends on his righteous fulfilment of every part of the law - every jot and tittle. If the answer lies in priorities, why did Moses nearly die in Exodus 4 for not circumcising his son? He was obeying God in going to Egypt, but had neglected one of the ritual aspects of the law, and nearly died for it - only saved by his wife.

Exodus 20 lays out the 10 commandments, but Leviticus 12 outlines a ritual aspect of the law - circumcision on the 8th day. So what if the day for circumcision falls on a Sabbath? Is circumcision work? Does obeying one law mean disobeying the other?

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Leviticus 12:1 - 3
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. 3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Jesus provides the answer in John 7:21-24
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; ) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

My understanding is that the Sabbath was to be kept holy, and circumcision was a symbol of the man (and Israel) being holy - in a covenant with God. So circumcision is not regular work - it is a form of worship and obedience to God. And if circumcision healed part of the male of his uncircumcision and so was not regular work, how much more was healing the entire man not regular work, and therefore appropriate for the Sabbath.

yup

I hope my recent posts clear it all up

 

[lenna]

I personally do not trust oral traditions and something that is basically a debate book with subjective interpretations. To say supposedly it was passed down by Moses already throws a red flag up. Either you know or you don't. Nothing in scripture speaks of such outward knowledge.

well I wouldn't necessarily either

I don't read the Talmud.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

ok well, I thought the title might be a bit provocative, but I truly did not expect the complete and bogus reactive and ridiculous posts that followed implying heresy and God knows what else

anyway

obviously Jesus never sinned and that needs to be made clear. anyone claiming I said that is reading INTO what I posted

I just didn't think I would come back to such a clamor after posting this yesterday.

Just let it roll off and keep moving. Even the greatest of pastors we're criticized. Paul was stoned. George Whitfield was beaten and criticized to the point many wouldn't allow him to preach at their church. So he mostly preached outside.

Point is, there will always be haters and criticizers. There will be others who call you a heretic. I have blocked a few of those on here since joining. Because they will follow you with a belief it is their righteous justification to shut you down. People will always find something to criticize.

Constructive criticism can be good but we have to discern when we may need to check ourselves.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

well I wouldn't necessarily either

I don't read the Talmud.

I don't either. I really never had a reason to. Scripture has always been easy to understand for me. Of course, we can study and learn more but that still doesn't add any more truth than just reading the words. Just hearing the Word can save the lost.

 

[lenna]

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. He was proclaiming that God meant the sabbath for good not evil and to ignore the sick or needy is considered morally sinful.

The Lord of the Sabbath set the true example. And the Pharisees often accused him of blasphemy. They wanted to stone him for doing such acts that Jesus did publicly that also proclaimed of His divinity in the God head.

Remember when he forgave the sins of a sick man in front of the Pharisees? Only God can do that and everyone there understood the message Jesus proclaimed through his actions.

all through the Bible we see God forgiving and forgiving. He calls to the rebellious Israelites over and over to turn from their sin and by the time Jesus came onto the scene, the Pharisees had basically taken the original law and added to it and created a burdensome and illegal set of law of their own. not to be funny, but kind of like the Supremes here interpreting the constitution making more law rather than understanding and holding up what has been given

the forgiveness of sins by ONE sacrifice for all time is the completion of the law

we now have one Mediator, we don't need another Moses, or the High Priest...we have THE High Priest whose blood always pleads our case before our Heavenly Father

I used to wrestle with Jesus words where He says this:

28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. Matthew 11

I didn't see how that could be.

 

[Tararose]

kindly read my recent posts for clarification

thank you

Was simply clarifying the reason Christ did not break the law in the instance given by the person I quoted. My reply was just to that person. Wasn’t referring to your posts. Thanks