When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sorry my dear fellow, the prophecy which you have just commented on which is actually Daniel 9:24-27 is known as the "jewel" of all the prophecies relating to the Messiah; it has nothing to do with either the so-called rapture nor the great tribulation.
SEVENTY WEEKS
[Daniel 9:24]
This is well-known as the ‘Seventy Weeks of Years’ prophecy by which we are able to confirm that not only did the Messiah arrive, but he arrived dead on time. There are of course many who on examination of this prophecy have failed to discern the subtlety of this.
It is of course of the utmost importance to determine the date from which the seventy weeks began, as well as their length. If these were literal weeks of seven days each, either the prophecy failed to be fulfilled, which is an impossibility (Isaiah 55:10, 11; Hebrews 6:18), or else the Messiah came more than twenty-four centuries ago, in the days of the Persian Empire, and was not identified.
So it is evident that the seventy weeks were symbolic of a much longer time. Certainly the events described in the prophecy were of such a nature that they could not have occurred in a literal seventy weeks or a little more than a year and four months. The majority of Bible scholars agree that the “weeks” of the prophecy are weeks of years. Some translations even read “seventy weeks of years” [AT, MO, RS]: the German-Jewish translation edited by Dr. Zunz also employs the expression.
As to the beginning of the seventy weeks, Nehemiah records a decree by King Artaxerxes of Persia, in the twentieth year of his rule, in the month of Nisan, for rebuilding the wall and the city of Jerusalem. The time of giving this decree in Artaxerxes twentieth year would accordingly be 455 B.C. So the time of the year for the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the arrival of Messiah the leader began on this date.
Now the formula for determining the sense of what is being prophesied here is actually quite straight forward. Seventy weeks of seven days to a week equals 490 days, so on the Bible directive of a day for a year, (Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34) it therefore follows that seventy weeks of years 70x7 years equals 490 years.
The prophecy however states that the Messiah would appear at the end of the sixty-ninth week of years [483 years] and many before working out the calculations have felt that this would lead to the birth of Jesus [Immanuel] but 483 years from 455 B.C. brings us to 29 A.D. the exact year in which Jesus appeared and was baptized as the Messiah [Christ], yes, he arrived exactly on time.
The next part of the prophecy states that the Messiah would be cut-off in the middle of that week and true enough, he was baptized at the age of thirty and in 33 A.D. at the age of thirty-three, half-way through the seventieth week of years, Jesus Messiah was executed [cut-off]. However, the covenant he was to keep for the many [Israel] for one week [seven years] continued until at the end of that week in (36 A.D.) when the offer of becoming one of the ‘Little Flock’ [Anointed-Ones] was then offered to the Gentile Nations with the baptizing of the Centurion Cornelius by the Apostle Peter in 36 A.D. exactly on time.
This is just one example in which we can confirm the inspired way in which the Creator has provided us with the means to check his prophetic Word.
Alexander
Please check Revelation on this, Babylon the Great is the World Empire of false religion which has been in league with the political nations for centuries. "And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery:Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth." (Revelation 17:5)
"And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus." (Revelation 17:6)
This is because as soon as apostasy set into the faith after the restraint by the Apostles had been removed; true Christians holding on to the truth of the scriptures were persecuted and some executed because they would not conform to the man-made doctrines which are still being taught today in Christendom.
Christendom in the meanwhile continues to embrace the governments and kings of the earth who still continue to commit fornication with her while true Christians today are ignored to the point of silence.
When soon, Christendom and other religions are finally destroyed, the governments and kings of the earth will beat themselves i grief over her, even though they will also help in her devastation as they tear her apart for the sake of all the wealth that she has stored up over the centuries. The Catholic Church and the Church of England are among the richest [FONT="]organizations [/FONT] in the world.
The nucleus of Babylon the Great was around long before Islam and its man-made teachings came into existence. Apostasy set in just after the Apostles passed off the scene, while Islam did not come into existence until Mahomet invented it before he died in 632 C.E.
[FONT="]The Catholic Church was invented by the Emperor Theodosius Magnus in 380 A.D. on his edict that all those embracing the doctrine of the Trinity shall henceforth be known as Catholic. [/FONT][FONT="]So the first Pope was actually Damasus 380 A.D.
Then after an argument with the Pope over the issue of divorce, [/FONT][FONT="]the Church of England was invented by Henry VIII and established in 1534 C.E.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Then we have the Mormon Church, invented and [/FONT][FONT="]established in 1830 by Joseph Smith, under the name of ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ whose supplement to the Bible; the [/FONT][FONT="]Book of Mormon:[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]was given-out as translated from the ‘golden plates’ of one ‘[/FONT][FONT="]Mormon[/FONT][FONT="]’[/FONT][FONT="]. But it is now known that it was really adapted from a Ms. Romance written about 1811 C.E. by Solomon Spaulding.[/FONT]
Their choosing of the name: ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints,’ is based on the belief that the original movement under the Apostles failed and that they have now returned as humans and members of this sect, to re-establish the faith all over again!
I have quite a list of these churches and movements of Christendom (Babylon the Great) who have all been started by one person or another; while the original and only Christian movement recorded in the Bible, 'The Way' (Acts 19:9, 23) continues to flourish as individuals are held together simply by the one teaching: The kingdom Good News of the second chance of everlasting life on the earth for all mankind by way of the Ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus during the thousand year reign of the Christ (Revelation 20:6) followed by salvation for all who stand against Satan when he is let loose at the end of this period. (Revelation 20:7-10)
The original movement 'The Way is not to be confused with; [FONT="]‘The Way International’ which is now recognized as a ‘right-wing’ religious group which induces a faith of ‘fear’ into all its followers. Like the virus ‘Vampirus Bacillus’, once injected it spreads through the mind and body; rendering the recipient impervious to opposition and self-reasoning while inducing a fear of retribution to anyone who manages to break away from this cult![/FONT]
Alexander
[FONT="]‘The Way International’ is now recognized as a ‘right-wing’ religious group which induces a faith of ‘fear’ into all its followers. Like the virus ‘Vampirus Bacillus’, once injected it spreads through the mind and body; rendering the recipient impervious to opposition and self-reasoning while inducing a fear of retribution to anyone who manages to break away from this cult![/FONT]
Metaphorical my dear fellow, the heavenly anointed little flock who rule with Christ in the heavens (Revelation 20:6) are actually both the living Temple and heavenly Jerusalem.
As for the earth, when the ocean canopy which caused the Deluge in 2370 B.C.E. is reformed due to the oceans which cover four fifths of the earth's surface at the moment, returning to the lower heavens; the surface of the earth will be greately changed and where Jerusalem is now will no doubt not exist. As it says in Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed way, and the 'sea' is no more."
Alexander
T
tanach
Guest
Plainword. At last I found someone on this site who knows what they are talking about when discussing this subject.
I look forwood to seeing more of your comments.
I look forwood to seeing more of your comments.
B
biblicaltruth15
Guest
The symbolic "SEA" here represents PEOPLE, TRIBES and NATIONS of the "Old World" which was the ROMAN EMPIRE. Thanks!
Last edited by a moderator:
Is that harlot the same as the little horn in Dan 7, and is the anti-christ part of that group?
My dear fellow, you are only half correct; you are relying in theoretical ideas put forward by those who have failed to understand the pattern and parallel of God's prophetic formula on which all prophecy is based.
With most prophecies, God has provided a typical and antitypical fulfilment.
The source of the waters during the Noachian Deluge [mabbul] was from the vast oceanic canopy which is described in the Bible as the waters above the expanse [firmament].
Excerpt:
" With the sudden collapse of this vast ocean canopy untold billions of tons of water deluged the Earth. This great added weight may have caused tremendous changes in the Earth’s surface. The earth’s crust is very thin (estimated at between twenty [32 kilometres] and one hundred miles [161 kilometres] thick), stretched over a rather plastic mass thousands of miles in diameter. Hence, under the added weight of the water great shifting movements in the crust likely occurred. In time new mountains were evidently thrust upward while old mountains rose to new heights, shallow sea basins were deepened as new shorelines were established; so that now four[FONT="]-[/FONT]fifths of the surface is covered with water." (See The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch, Patten 1966, p. 62)
So in line with your comment, we are actually presented with both a typical and antitypical status. Vast oceanic seas literally covering four fifths of the planet [typical fulfilment] and the raging sea of humanity which is ever increasing at the moment until its conclusion.
This has nothing to do with the Roman Empire which has now gone and yet we are still left with an even vaster raging sea of humanity as we near the dawn of the Millennium.
Revelation which deals with the whole of creative prophecy, would not simply single out something like the Roman Empire when all is still continuing as from the Deluge. Also, if it did refer to the Roman Empire, taking into consideration the following scriptures; we wpuld all now be past the Sabbath Millennium and into God's great Jubilee Sabbath as foreshadowed by the Jubilee Law which was given not only to the Jews but to the whole of mankind enabling us to use its parallel to define where we are today.
Something to ponder over.
Alexander
K
KennethC
Guest
You can not take and compare and make the Jerusalem in Revelation 11 as the same as the New Jerusalem that comes down after the millennial. As Revelation 11 is before the millennial reign of Christ and Revelation 21-22 is after the millennial reign and all else has been fulfilled. Nice try though...........LOL
As I have already posted, if you are all waiting for the so-called 'rapture'; you have missed it!
This occurred when the Prince of the Sanctuary stood up at the end of the Appointed Times of the nations (Daniel 12:1) in 1914 when there was war in the heavens and World War on the earth covering a period of thirty years when Christ in his capacity as God's champion Michael cleaned his Father's heavenly Temple as fore shadowed two thousand years ago when on reaching the age of thirty; he cleansed his Father's earthly Temple.
When the :rince of the Sanctuary stood up, his immortal heavenly little flock (Luke 12:32) were raised up as a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and met him in the air.
Alexander
It is all about Israel. The people who were persecuting the Children of Israel throughout the ages are the same people doing it today and into the future. Christendom is not a false religion although certain sects have doctrinal issues. Idol worship = worship of false god(s) = harlotry. If you are the Mother of such worship, you are the biggest. Islam is the biggest false religion, by far, on the planet. I'm sorry it still remains a mystery to you my friend.
Islam is so obviously Mystery Babylon that most can't recognize it for what it is. She beheads, she kills prophets and saints, she lives luxuriously with her oil. Her kings are filthy rich while her people are among the poorest. The 3rd seal is about this. The 4th seal discusses a people who make up 1/4 of the world. The color of this horse is green which is the official color of Islam. They kill by all the means mentioned. They think their actions will get them to heaven, but Hades follows them instead. They have taken peace from the earth. The world will never be at peace as long as Islam is around.
K
KennethC
Guest
That is not a theory it is biblical proof, which is one of the reasons the Jews went into slavery to Egypt in the first place was because of disobedience, and then God brought them out by Moses after their punishment was served. Then they disobeyed again in the wilderness which is why they were made to stay out there as long as God made them.
That is not true about only one place speaking of the man of sin standing in the temple, because Daniels A.O.D. and then Jesus referring to that in the gospels is the same event as 2 Thessalonians 2.
Revelation 11:19 is not referring to the temple in Revelation 11:1-2, as one is the spiritual temple in heaven and the first one mentioned in 11:1-2 is an earthly temple. It clearly says the Gentiles will thread the outer court and it is located in the holy city Jerusalem. Not to be confused with the New Jerusalem that is created by God and comes down from heaven after the millennial and satan cast into the lake of fire....
It can not be in heaven because the passage clearly says where it is located !!!
Revelation 11:1-13 all takes place on earth..............
That is not true about only one place speaking of the man of sin standing in the temple, because Daniels A.O.D. and then Jesus referring to that in the gospels is the same event as 2 Thessalonians 2.
Revelation 11:19 is not referring to the temple in Revelation 11:1-2, as one is the spiritual temple in heaven and the first one mentioned in 11:1-2 is an earthly temple. It clearly says the Gentiles will thread the outer court and it is located in the holy city Jerusalem. Not to be confused with the New Jerusalem that is created by God and comes down from heaven after the millennial and satan cast into the lake of fire....
It can not be in heaven because the passage clearly says where it is located !!!
Revelation 11:1-13 all takes place on earth..............
K
KennethC
Guest
It does work to identify the Lords 1st coming, but it also shows the Lord gets cut off at the end of the 69th week.
There is the first 7 weeks and then there is a period of 62 weeks as Daniel 9:25 shows, this together will make 69 weeks, and then Daniel 9:26 shows that the Lord will be cut off (crucified) at the end of this 69th week. Leaving a final 70th week to be fulfilled that Daniel 9:27 shows will be started when the man of sin confirms a covenant.......
The person who confirms this covenant is referring to the prince of the people that destroyed the temple, and it was the Roman empire in 70 AD that destroyed the temple. But the A.O.D. was not done in that year, so the prince is still yet to come !!!
It is not metaphorical as Revelation 11:1-13 shows these events are taking place on earth, and Revelation 21 once again is referring to after the millennial and Revelation 11 is before the millennial.........
Oh but I can.
. Let John interpret John.All references in Revelation to the "Temple of God" refer to the one in heaven. All of them. Yet you want to take just one of them, the one mentioned in 11:1 and make that an earthly, man-made future 3rd temple in Jerusalem when you have no other supporting passage anywhere which tells us that a third temple will be built on earth by man.
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
First, you aren't told this temple is a third man-made earthly temple. You aren't told it is in Jerusalem. Lastly, the "Temple of God" is mentioned again at the end of Chapter 11 and this temple is clearly in heaven.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
So we have two places in Chapter 11 which discuss the Temple of God with the second one clearly being in heaven with the location of the first one not given. Is it such a leap to assume they are the same temple located in the same place? Or, is it a bigger leap to infer that the first temple is a rebuilt Jewish temple when you have no other supporting documentation for such a position?
John was in heaven when he was told to measure and nothing tells us he was sent back down to earth to do it. John sees souls worshiping at the alter in heaven, does he not?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
John sees people serving God day and night in His heavenly temple, does he not?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
Stands to figure that if John is in heaven and clearly sees souls/people in Heaven in the heavenly temple worshiping God that this passage would also refer to them. Basically John is told to count those in the Temple of God in Heaven.
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
Q: Why would John be asked to count them?
A: Because more would die and they will be Gentile
...and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed...
I think John was being shown the Church Age. I think Rev 11 is all about the Church Age. John tells us that "Lampstands" are churches and John tells us that the two witnesses are lampstands.
Rev 1:...and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
Rev 11: [SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
John isn't going to start changing symbolism from one meaning to another.
K
KennethC
Guest
[h=1]Revelation 11:1-13[/h]11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
All the events in Revelation 11:1-13 are taking place on earth, and not up in heaven as I clearly showed by highlighting key words in this passage to prove it. You can continue to spiritualize it and say it is in heaven all you like, but the passage clearly says where this temple is located.
And this is not after the millennial because it shows the beast/man of sin is doing the slaughtering here, and he gets cast into the lake of fire before the millennial !!!
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
All the events in Revelation 11:1-13 are taking place on earth, and not up in heaven as I clearly showed by highlighting key words in this passage to prove it. You can continue to spiritualize it and say it is in heaven all you like, but the passage clearly says where this temple is located.
And this is not after the millennial because it shows the beast/man of sin is doing the slaughtering here, and he gets cast into the lake of fire before the millennial !!!
This part is theory...
We don't have any teaching of a third temple being built. Not to say it doesn't happen, and not to say that some Jews would like to rebuild it. I'm saying we have no concrete evidence of it being built by man.
The A of D and the Man of Sin are not the same thing. Paul never teaches that a third man-made temple will be built on earth. He merely tells us that the Man of Sin will be revealed "in the Temple of God." This term or phrase, "Temple of God" is the same used by John in Revelation to refer to the temple in heaven.
It's all symbolism. Don't literalize some of it and spiritualize some of it. It is either all symbolic or all literal. You have clear symbolism in use in Chapter 11, big time. Lampstand is symbolic. Sodom and Egypt are symbolic. Fire coming out of the mouths of the 2 witnesses consuming people is symbolic. The beast that ascends from the Bottomless pit to kill the two witnesses are symbolic. Therefore the court where the Gentiles are trampling is also symbolic.
K
KennethC
Guest
Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
These two scriptures from the Lord Jesus are parallel passages to these two;
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Revelation 13:6
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
K
KennethC
Guest
This is where you are mistaken a bit, just because something is using symbolism does not mean it can be literal also.
Jesus used parallels all the time to symbolize how salvation literally works, and the literal feasts are used to symbolize the different points of God's plan. It works both ways in God's word and we can not just take and say because it is symbolic it is not referring to a literal event.
But this is not symbolic as I showed this passage from Revelation 11 and it clearly shows where these events are taking place......
Jesus used parallels all the time to symbolize how salvation literally works, and the literal feasts are used to symbolize the different points of God's plan. It works both ways in God's word and we can not just take and say because it is symbolic it is not referring to a literal event.
But this is not symbolic as I showed this passage from Revelation 11 and it clearly shows where these events are taking place......