When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

The Early Church fathers' such as Barnabas (ca.100-105), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-195), Irenaeus (120-202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (ca. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and Lactantius (260-330) wrote on the imminent return of Jesus Christ, the central argument for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view.

Holding an imminent view of Christ return does not mean you believe a pre-trib timing. Christ spoke often that He would come back quickly but "quickly" is a relative term. What seems quick to Him doesn't seem quick to us mere mortals. The fact is Christ gave prerequisites to His return in Mat 24, Mark 13, etc and so did Paul in 2 Thes 2. Daniel also tells us that the "Little Horn" is on earth fighting the saints before the "Ancient of days" comes.

Further, we know for a fact that Christ could not return before Peter was old. This from Jesus' own mouth:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.”

Thus Jesus could not have returned until His own prophesy above was fulfilled. We then have John who discusses in Revelation the final Beast empire and lists them out referring to 7 with an 8th to come:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

We know from history that the 7th was the Ottoman Empire which was from 1299 to 1921. Therefore Christ could not return before 1921. We also know that Israel had to become a state again before Christ returns which of course happened in 1948.

Thus the immanency idea of any of the old church leaders does not prove a pre-trib timing nor does it prove immanency as it has been nearly 2,000 years so clearly it hasn't been very imminent.

But, some Medieval writers such as Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373), Abbot Ceolfrid's Latin Codex Amiatinus (ca. 690-716), and Brother Dolcino wrote statements that distinguish the Rapture from the Second Coming.

The views of these guys do not trump the teachings of the Apostles like Matthew, Mark, Luke and Paul and I'd argue John. These men all knew Jesus personally as a man and they recorded His true sayings. You will find no passage where Christ discusses any type of return before the Tribulation nor does He teach in two separate returns.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is indeed then not only biblical, but supported throughout Church history.

Yet, you will find no passage anywhere that locates Christ returning before the Trib.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Gosh, PlainWord, no sooner do I come around and cleanup after you a little, than you start leaving debris all over your home again. Anyway, here's your newspaper,

Further Authentic Scholarship and Exegesis of the Pretribulation Rapture​

 

[PeterJens]

Peter, i am so surprise that your name is Peter and yet, you don´t have insight to any of these things. The evil words you just uesd against me was also used against Jesus Christ by the so called Pharisees, those who claimed to have acquired all degrees so who am i. May God forgive you for those evil words. Actually, when i mentioned NDE, i meant "NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE" and you can find it on "YOUTUBE". You can even find it on "GOOGLE", yes!

You have got to be kidding. I will not be kind or polite to you. I am evil by questioning something that is simply not apparent, obvious or real. That is called being brain washed, because when challenged you have to produce your evidence or even logic.

But you have none. Near Death Experiences are completely unreliable. The bible is very clear, the return of the King will be clear and open. Only delusional preachers or those with a death wish go where you are going. The problem is when the ideas and hopes turn up empty. It then becomes an invisible return of Christ etc.

I am happy you can live in your own little world, but that is all it is, and it will not change or effect anyone else. I mean you no harm or anything else. I am not sure you will actually get anything out of this site or any other, because in your world everything is very different from reality so how do you expect anyone who is able to understand you.

 

[PlainWord]

We are right here in prophesy:

13 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.

Leopard = Greece
Bear = Medo Persia (Iran)
Lion = Babylon (Iraq)

Greece broke up into 4 pieces after Alexander the Great.

Greece
Turkey
Syria
Egypt

Therefore we are going to see alliance between the regions of:

Iran
Iraq
Greece
Turkey
Syria
Egypt
1 other

If we study the areas of the ancient kingdoms of the Lion, Leopard and Bear we see much of it overlaps:

Ancient Babylon:

Ancient Greece:

Ancient Medo Persia:

So we see that the final beast empire that will be lead by the Man of Sin (AKA AntiChrist) will come from this region. I firmly believe the financial crises in Greece will lead her to leave the Euro Zone and she will be invited to join the Muslim nations and be part of the final beast. This is happening before our very eyes and happening very rapidly.

 

[PlainWord]

One more point to be made from my last post. All the beast empires have a few things in common. They all enslaved Israel to one degree or another. All of these empires worshiped pagan gods and many within the Tribes of Israel followed those pagan gods.

The one religion the above areas all follow is Islam. Islam is the final religion that those in the above areas must follow. Any Christian in these areas is in severe danger and should exit these areas as this is the new Mystery Babylon, the Mother of all Harlots and will be destroyed by God.

 

[PlainWord]

Gosh, PlainWord, no sooner do I come around and cleanup after you a little, than you start leaving debris all over your home again. Anyway, here's your newspaper,

Further Authentic Scholarship and Exegesis of the Pretribulation Rapture​

I already responded to the diarrhea the author of this article was attempting to spew forth. Your barf bag is in the dumpster.

You won't have to wait much longer my friend. The Man of Sin will be here soon and that will end all debate unless of course you fail to see him for who he is.

 

[KennethC]

If the Tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of the original covenant, then he reveals himself to the extent you, or I, or anyone recognizes him and his confirming of a covenant for 7 years.
That is why I asked, and even beg, you to show me where in the Bible the Tribulation is Not 3 1/2 years. Where is it 7 years?
Where?







In regard to your nice question, all we seem to differ on is the length of the Tribulation. I state that it is 3 1/2 years long.
Based on the Scripture I provided you in my previous post. You state that it is 7 years long. My question to you is: Can you support your position with the Bible? If so, where in the Bible? What Scripture(s)? That would help me a lot.
I get that the covenant when made is intended to be for 7 years. I get that God determined 70 7s on Israel, and that only one 7 remains to transpire. I get, and agree, with both of those. But nowhere, that I can find, does the Bible call those 7 years either Tribulation or Great Tribulation. Where do you find that the Tribulation is 7 years long?






Ok, I'll be glad to try to take that into account. If you would be so kind as to share with me where in the Bible it might say or suggest or imply or indicate or show or prove or evidence or demonstrate or reveal or prophesy or define the Tribulation to be 7 years long. Where? I fully get that you state, and at least assume that it is 7 years. But where might the Scriptures say that?

In regard to the AOD: that is what the son of perdition (and false prophet) does. In Revelation and Daniel and Thessalonians (2 Thes 2:4). And that is certainly one, huge time when he 'is revealed.' But I do not read 2 Thes 2:1-12 as saying that is THE (one, single, only, unique) event by which he is revealed. Because of both the grammar of 2 Thes 2:3-4, and also because of Daniel 9:27 which states that he will make a firm covenant with the many 3 1/2 years Before...............he breaks it with his AOD.

Lastly, in regard to 2 Thes 2:1 about my (and other saints) gathering together to Him: the earliest (first) rapture (of the Manchild and Firstfruits; Rv 12; 14; Lk 21:36; Rv 3:10; Philip 3:11---the 'ek-'resurrection from the dead; Rv 7:9-17)
happens near simultaneously with the AOD. That is: at the start of the Great Tribulation (aka The Tribulation), of 3 1/2 years.
So that even if the AOD is the (only) meaning of the 'son of perdition being revealed' in 2 Thes 2:3----that is still simultaneous, or nearly simultaneous, with the rapture of the overcomers.






From my reading (previous post of mine to this), those final 3 1/2 years are the Tribulation. Are the Great Tribulation.
The Tribulation, based on all the verses I can find, is 3 1/2 years long. Not 7 years.







I don't think it's impossible, in Scripture, that their temple might be rebuilt even before the last week of Daniel. Daniel 9 does not specify that the covenant initiates their animal sacrifices. Maybe the covenant will. I can see that. But regardless, I pretty much agree with your last paragraph : ) Which also indicates to me that the first 3 1/2 years is NOT tribulation. Thanks







Interesting. I never heard 2:13 used that way. Satan's throne is the World. Which is what I took 2:13 to represent. My idea of his nationality is based on Dan 8:9. Being Greece. But since Turkey at John's time was Greek, then that doesn't necessarily conflict with your thought. (I would say that Antichrist is definitely not ISIS, not Islamic, not Islam----though the spirit of all those is antichrist.) Nor should he be Arab or Turk. Your use of Rv 13:2----------I do not understand

Daniel 9:27

New Living Translation
The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."

English Standard Version
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

New American Standard Bible
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

King James Bible
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Here in Daniel is where it shows the tribulation period will be 7 years long, because one set of seven or one week in prophetic terms is 7 years. Anybody that does prophecy studies and look into how Jews tradition does the timeline along with history will know this. That one prophetic week is 7 years !!!

Then it also says in the middle of the prophetic week he caused the daily sacrifice to cease, this would place the A.O.D. after the first 3 1/2 years have ended and the final 3 1/2 years of the Great tribulation period begin.

The issue you have is you want the period of the final 3 1/2 years that goes by the G.T. to be the whole tribulation period, but it is not as that is only the time when the worst persecution and killing by the man of sin takes place. But once again the bible does not say we will escape man's/world's persecution. It says we are not appointed to face God's wrath !!!

 

[KennethC]

One more point to be made from my last post. All the beast empires have a few things in common. They all enslaved Israel to one degree or another. All of these empires worshiped pagan gods and many within the Tribes of Israel followed those pagan gods.

The one religion the above areas all follow is Islam. Islam is the final religion that those in the above areas must follow. Any Christian in these areas is in severe danger and should exit these areas as this is the new Mystery Babylon, the Mother of all Harlots and will be destroyed by God.

I would have to disagree with you here to a degree, because the areas in purple are not Mystery Babylon.
Those areas will follow the man of sin to destroy Mystery Babylon as Revelation 17:16 shows, as Mystery Babylon is Saudi Arabia.....

 

[JesusIsAll]

You won't have to wait much longer my friend. The Man of Sin will be here soon and that will end all debate unless of course you fail to see him for who he is.

Boy, you got me there. It will be hard to tell the difference between some politician on TV and One coming from the sky as lightning from east to west, with ten thousands of His saints, setting His feet on the Mount of Olives, the Mount of Olives cleaving in the midst. Makes sense to me.

This is what I like about all you web "theologians." Your prescient, intelligent arguments. You're just too challenging!

"I don't know anything about the Bible, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."​

 

[PlainWord]

I would have to disagree with you here to a degree, because the areas in purple are not Mystery Babylon.
Those areas will follow the man of sin to destroy Mystery Babylon as Revelation 17:16 shows, as Mystery Babylon is Saudi Arabia.....

Mystery Babylon is Islam and you are right, Islam is headquartered at Mecca in Saudi Arabia. They are already destroying Islam. But yes, they will destroy Mystery Babylon. I didn't say the areas in purple were Mystery Babylon, I said the people living in all the areas, all three maps are Islamic today. The map in purple was ancient Medo Persia. Thanks for your comments.

 

[PlainWord]

Boy, you got me there. It will be hard to tell the difference between some politician on TV and One coming from the sky as lightning from east to west, with ten thousands of His saints, setting His feet on the Mount of Olives, the Mount of Olives cleaving in the midst. Makes sense to me.

This is what I like about all you web "theologians." Your prescient, intelligent arguments. You're just too challenging!

"I don't know anything about the Bible, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."​

I'm pretty sure those who believe in the pre-trib rapture aren't looking for Christ on the Mt. of Olives. Speaking of the Mt. of Olives, my friend and web theologian, you think Christ is coming to the Mt of Olives?? It is God Almighty, the Father who comes there and splits the Mt. of Olives and He doesn't come with ten thousands of His saint, He comes with ALL OF THEM. Just like everywhere else, you get your passages mixed up.. The "Lord" spoken of in the below is the FATHER.

Zech 14 (truncated to help those with reading disabilities)

Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
... Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I'm pretty sure those who believe in the pre-trib rapture aren't looking for Christ on the Mt. of Olives. Speaking of the Mt. of Olives, my friend and web theologian, you think Christ is coming to the Mt of Olives?? It is God Almighty, the Father who comes there and splits the Mt. of Olives and He doesn't come with ten thousands of His saint, He comes with ALL OF THEM. Just like everywhere else, you get your passages mixed up.. The "Lord" spoken of in the below is the FATHER.

Zech 14 (truncated to help those with reading disabilities)

Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
... Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

God the Father is coming to the Mount of Olives, to execute judgement? I'm sorry, but that's pathetic and unscriptural on so many fronts. And Jude 1:14, as to "ten thousands." There's no way of seeing where to begin, correcting the error, often sheer fantasy, of your posts, and you're not a career I choose. I really didn't intend to interrupt your trolling the rapture, just tried to do a little cleanup, even offered an article of authentic theological merit. There was no intent to have a futile discussion from nowhere. Do brush your teeth, before you go to bed.

 

[flob]

Here in Daniel is where it shows the tribulation period will be 7 years long, because one set of seven or one week in prophetic terms is 7 years. Anybody that does prophecy studies and look into how Jews tradition does the timeline along with history will know this. That one prophetic week is 7 years !!!

Thanks Ken.
Yes. I agree. Even someone as dull of mind as I knows that one seven = 7 years.
One seven (7 years) of that total is left for Israel to experience.
My point, however, is that nowhere is either the total, or just the last 7,
called 'Tribulation.' Not in Daniel 9, not in Daniel. Not in Revelation, not in Matthew, not by the Lord
Jesus (who is God), not by Paul, not in Thessalonians, not in the Bible.
There in Daniel it shows a 7-year period. But it does not show that the (entire) 7 years = tribulation.
In fact, it shows that half of it, the first half of the 7, is Not tribulation. Instead it is..............a kept
treaty. An honored treaty. Those first 3 1/2 years aren't tribulation. They are..........peace. Security.
Nontribulation.

The issue you have is you want the period of the final 3 1/2 years that goes by the G.T. to be the whole tribulation period, but it is not as that is only the time when the worst persecution and killing by the man of sin takes place.

It doesn't matter what I want. Whether I want some tribulation, lots of it, none of it, in the world, doesn't alter the fact what it is. The final 3 1/2 years we agree................is tribulation. Even 'great' tribulation. But where in the Bible might you see
any especial suffering or tribulation beyond what normal life is, in the first 3 1/2 years? Merely because 7 years are determined upon Israel.........doesn't mean they are 7 tribulation years. I understand if you cannot find any Scripture indicating so. Because..........there isn't any. So no need to spend your time. Thanks

But once again the bible does not say we will escape man's/world's persecution. It says we are not appointed to face God's wrath !!!

I agree that the church isn't 'appointed to face God's wrath,' per that verse in Thessalonians. Since it is discipline He exercises towards His sons (Heb 12; 1 Cor 3), not 'wrath.' I agree also that there is no blank guarantee of escape from man's/world's persecution. However, since Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 are in the Bible, there is a conditional escape. Based on the conditions, for example, in those very Scripture passages. In fact, in 21:36, the Lord directs His saints to pray to escape the Great Tribulation.
Thanks

 

[PlainWord]

God the Father is coming to the Mount of Olives, to execute judgement? I'm sorry, but that's pathetic and unscriptural on so many fronts. And Jude 1:14, as to "ten thousands." There's no way of seeing where to begin, correcting the error, often sheer fantasy, of your posts, and you're not a career I choose. I really didn't intend to interrupt your trolling the rapture, just tried to do a little cleanup, even offered an article of authentic theological merit. There was no intent to have a futile discussion from nowhere. Do brush your teeth, before you go to bed.

I guess truncating didn't help you in your reading comprehension. People only focus on the return of Christ and totally forget about God the Father and His return. God doesn't remain in heaven all by Himself. Of course God the Father comes and executes judgment. To say it's not scriptural is frankly, not scriptural.

Who is the "Ancient of Days" mentioned below?

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Whose saints? Who is the "Most High?" Who is coming?

Who is executing judgment here?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; [SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you..

Who is repaying? Who is judging? How about here?

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God...

Who is sending fire to devour here?

And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Were you able to read the word "God" in the above passage or does your Bible say "Jesus" here?

Wanna bet that the above passage where God devours those who surrounded Jerusalem is the same as being discussed below?


[SUP]12 [/SUP]And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

The "Lord" in the OT is almost always God the Father. What about this passage from 2 Peter 3?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Do you still not see God executing judgment? How about here?

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

Whose bowls of wrath? Again, who is judging?

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And I heard another from the altar saying, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

Seriously my friend, you need to take stock in your lack of understanding. You think you know it all but you don't.

 

[Pumicestone]

1000 people read "Revelation".
100 different interpretations - and 900 who give up and follow whatever someone else reckons.

Gobbledegook.

 

[biblicaltruth15]

You have got to be kidding. I will not be kind or polite to you. I am evil by questioning something that is simply not apparent, obvious or real. That is called being brain washed, because when challenged you have to produce your evidence or even logic.

But you have none. Near Death Experiences are completely unreliable. The bible is very clear, the return of the King will be clear and open. Only delusional preachers or those with a death wish go where you are going. The problem is when the ideas and hopes turn up empty. It then becomes an invisible return of Christ etc.

I am happy you can live in your own little world, but that is all it is, and it will not change or effect anyone else. I mean you no harm or anything else. I am not sure you will actually get anything out of this site or any other, because in your world everything is very different from reality so how do you expect anyone who is able to understand you.

Hello again, my dear friend! You talked about the return of the King open and clear, but have you considered these bible verses? (Exodus 16:10; Matthew 16:28, 24:30, 34, 26:64; Mark 13:26, 14:62; Revelation 1:7). Please, what are your interpretations concerning "COMING IN or WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" and "GENERATION" which were used in these verses? When the children of Israel saw the cloud, does it meant that they also saw God in or with it? NO!! But it rather meant that they strongly felt His presence around them. Well now, i can´t describe how they felt this but perhaps some sort of atmospheric occurrance. I pray with these, you may understand what i mean. May God continues to bless you.

 

[cerialis]

Jesus isn't Michael.
Nor have God's redeemed or overcomers been taken up yet.
(Except for Enoch, Elijah and Moses apparently---though for further
purpose at the end).
The Great Tribulation (the climactic winnowing and battle) depends on rapture.
Not because rapture in and of itself is anything. But simply because God finally will
get His finished Bride and Body in remnant form(s), and thus then have the base or ground
or 'ability' (per His original purpose of working via man and committing His dominion to men),
to oust Satan from any access to heaven (Rev 12), limiting him and his fellow rebels to the earth
(Rev 13), thus beginning the process of the 'wrap-up,' the end. In which Satan is ultimately limited
further: to the abyss; used for one final purging; and then eternally trashed and imprisoned to the lake
of fire.

A good little write-up my friend, but in need of further research.

Christ Jesus, while the Word at the beginning of creation and Jesus while on earth, was already known as Michael long before this. He is the one who stood against the angelic princes who tried to prevent Daniel receiving the prophetic word of God. (Daniel 10:12, 13)

In Revelation 12:7-12 we have Christ in his capacity again as God's champion against the dragon [Satan] who is ousted from heaven and cast down to the earth. Now next to Michael [Christ], Satan is the most powerful angelic creature in existence. No other angelic creature would be able to stand against him.

Almighty God of course, is the most powerful of all, but he is a being,; not having been created; plus the issue between him and Satan is a moral one whereby God is already putting his Legal Precedent in place.

Satan would never have challenged Almighty on the question of strength, because on that basis; he would lose.

Satan is more subltle, and so he challenged God on the moral basis of obedience; in that God could not put a perfect man on the earth who would remain faithful to him.

God therefore took up the challenge and at the appointed time, Jesus arrived to prove the issue and by his ransom sacrifice; remove the curse of Adamic death from all mankind and open the way to the hope of everlasting life on the earth by way of the resurrection.

The so-called 'rapture' is actually the raising up by re-creation, of his heavenly 'little flock' who will rule with Christ in the heavens as kings and priests during the thousand year reign of the Christ. (Revelation 20:6)

Alexander.

 

[cerialis]

I love to think that I would escape the Tribulation by being raptured before it all starts, who wouldnt?. But the Bible
doesnt support the idea. In fact all through it talks about Christians facing tribulation and persecution. There is not one
passage that says that Christans will be taken anywhere before the tribulation. The whole idea was invented in the 19th century when there were a number of cults springing up ie JWs Mormons SDA ect. None of the Church Fathers believed in it
and a few of them knew John. Jesus prayed that we would not be taken from the world but be kept from the evil one.
The Pre Trib position relies on reading into passages things that ae not there. Many who hold the Pre Trib view do believe that Christ will return invisibly as the world will not see him. Jesus said he would come as a thief but told us to watch
if he supposed to come at any moment and snatch us all up what are we supposed to be watching for?

Sorry my friend, to be 'raptured' [raised up as a heavenly immortal creature to reign with Christ] on would have to be one of the anointed 'little flock', (Luke 12:32) plus the fact that the rapture began in 1914 and the door of opportunity for this position closed in 1945; you have missed it!

Alexander

 

[cerialis]

One more point to be made from my last post. All the beast empires have a few things in common. They all enslaved Israel to one degree or another. All of these empires worshiped pagan gods and many within the Tribes of Israel followed those pagan gods.

The one religion the above areas all follow is Islam. Islam is the final religion that those in the above areas must follow. Any Christian in these areas is in severe danger and should exit these areas as this is the new Mystery Babylon, the Mother of all Harlots and will be destroyed by God.

Yes, quite correct, Babylon the Great will indeed be destroyed by the authorities themselves as they eagerly grab all of her riches. Babylon the Great is of course, the world empire of false religion which includes all of Christendom and the rest of the pagan religions. (Revelation Revelation 17:5; 18:2,3, 21-24)

Alexander

 

[KennethC]

Thanks Ken.
Yes. I agree. Even someone as dull of mind as I knows that one seven = 7 years.
One seven (7 years) of that total is left for Israel to experience.
My point, however, is that nowhere is either the total, or just the last 7,
called 'Tribulation.' Not in Daniel 9, not in Daniel. Not in Revelation, not in Matthew, not by the Lord
Jesus (who is God), not by Paul, not in Thessalonians, not in the Bible.
There in Daniel it shows a 7-year period. But it does not show that the (entire) 7 years = tribulation.
In fact, it shows that half of it, the first half of the 7, is Not tribulation. Instead it is..............a kept
treaty. An honored treaty. Those first 3 1/2 years aren't tribulation. They are..........peace. Security.
Nontribulation.









It doesn't matter what I want. Whether I want some tribulation, lots of it, none of it, in the world, doesn't alter the fact what it is. The final 3 1/2 years we agree................is tribulation. Even 'great' tribulation. But where in the Bible might you see
any especial suffering or tribulation beyond what normal life is, in the first 3 1/2 years? Merely because 7 years are determined upon Israel.........doesn't mean they are 7 tribulation years. I understand if you cannot find any Scripture indicating so. Because..........there isn't any. So no need to spend your time. Thanks








I agree that the church isn't 'appointed to face God's wrath,' per that verse in Thessalonians. Since it is discipline He exercises towards His sons (Heb 12; 1 Cor 3), not 'wrath.' I agree also that there is no blank guarantee of escape from man's/world's persecution. However, since Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 are in the Bible, there is a conditional escape. Based on the conditions, for example, in those very Scripture passages. In fact, in 21:36, the Lord directs His saints to pray to escape the Great Tribulation.
Thanks

Well that would be wrong because Jesus gives us the timeline in Matthew 24;

Matthew 24:9 - Start of the 7 year tribulation period.....

"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."

Matthew 24:15 - The A.O.D. which takes place in the middle of the 7 years......

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"

Matthew 24:21 - The final 3 1/2 years called the great tribulation takes place..........

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."