When does the rapture occur?
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We will have to agree to disagree with you up front, BECAUSE I really do not want to change this into a tongues Debate, and I have debated it so many times in the past, and extremely tired of that subject. KNOW the most mainline Churches, believe the Charismatic tongues are a counterfeit of the real McCoy, because EVERY SINGLE TIME the Disciples did it, there were UNBELIEVING Jews present who heard every word in there own native Dialect. And the fact that Paul Himself said these things:
1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
John 2:18 (NIV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"
1 Corinthians 14:22 (NKJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers{who are JEWS}; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
1 Corinthians 14:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
Acts 2:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful;
but not all things edify. Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's ...
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. .☝☟
1 Corinthians 14:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1 Corinthians 14:18-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I thank God that I speak in ⌊other⌋ languages more than all of you;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, in order to teach others also,
than 10,000 words in ⌊another⌋ language.
NO, I do not want to debate it, as it only leads to Charismatics wanting to argue. I just want to make sure you KNOW WHY we do not believe in the Charismatic Experience, based on what the BIBLE actually says.
I apologize to any offended by those beliefs, but that is what most mainline (non-charismatic) Churches believe on that issue, and it is NOT an attempt to "quench the spirit", but rather to just believe what is Biblical.
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Jesus comes once to gather the saved (everyone else dies) and the saved go back to heaven to be with Him for a thousand years (Rev 19,-21). Satan is left with an empty world and nothing to do, no one to tempt (Bond for a thousand years, chained to earth). When Jesus comes with the saints, after the thousand years, the second resurrection of the dead happens. Punishment and death comes to the unsaved and the Devil and his angels. Then the new earth is recreated and evil is gone forever.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Even with your eyes closed lightning is still noticeable, If people have closed their eyes and put their fingers in their ears they still won't be able to hide from the glorious appearing of Jesus.
Tit_2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We must be changed in order to be with Jesus (This must be the first resurrection).
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those that are part of the first resurrection live with God a thousand years.
Second Death
Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Second resurrection must take place at the end of the thousand years.
That makes sense doesn't it?
The first resurrection is the resurrection of the Righteous, and it happens in three primary phases, each in their own order, it SAYS SO.
The resurrection of the Dead in Christ, is first; the we which remain at the time HE calls out His Bride to go the the Wedding of the Lamb; then the Martyred Tribulation Saints. We have given you all the verses that prove that, so there is no point in rehashing it over and over again. You want to believe otherwise, that is your poblem, and it is between you and GOD. NOT between you and us who believe our Bridegroom is coming for us, and the Wedding is in HEAVEN, the same Seven Years as Jacob's Trouble happens here on earth. You want to go through the Tribulation, guess what, you will get to; while we will be spared that hour of trial.
GEE, it sounds like we are finished, and we agree on the timing of the resurrection of the unrighteous.
Sorry i haven't read all the posts,
But i'm guessing that the first resurrection a) The dead in Christ in 1 Thes 4:16, b)Then those that are alive 1 Thes 4:17 c) Then the martyred tribulation saints.
If that's right (above a,b,c.) it all happens at the same time. I agree that the wedding is in Heaven and the resurrection of the unrighteous is after the thousand years.
But The TIME of Trouble
I don't want to suffer for no reason but if i can live or die or suffer for Christ than Praise His name. We are told we will suffer.
Mat_5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 1Pe_3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
Deu_31:8 And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed. Will you be able to claim this promise?
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat_5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Luk_21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Praise the Lord, for His sake, i can be a witness to the universe that i LOVE Him enough to die for Him. Guess what i will get to go through this tribulation while you are spared this time of trial. I'll let you know about the times the Lord went before me, and was with me, and how He didn't fail me, or forsake me, when we are in heaven since you can't be there.
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flob
Guest
The Father is in Me, Jn 10:38.
He who sent Me is with Me, He has not left Me alone, 8:29.
The Father is in Me, Jn 14:11.
In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
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flob
Guest
We are not talking about an "appearance" or a coming. I am talking about your #1 Pre-Trib Rapture passage of 1 Thes 4:13-17. All of you think this is Christ returning but verse 14 makes clear it is the Father coming. You can't even read a portion of scripture and identify which member of the Trinity is being discussed. No wonder you can't comprehend anything correctly.
...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
This is God the Father.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout...
This is God the Father.
...and with the trumpet of God.
This is God's trumpet
to meet the Lord in the air...
This is God the Father
...New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband...
This is God the Father
God Himself will be with them and be their God.
This is God the Father.
...the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.
This is God the Father.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it.
This is God the Father.
And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words. [SUP]9 [/SUP]“I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated...
This is God the Father.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
This is God the Father.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
This is God the Father.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the Lord of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.
This is God the Father.
You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the Lord of hosts.
This is God the Father.
Be silent in the presence of the Lord God; For the day of the Lord is at hand, For the Lord has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests.
This is God the Father.
In the day of the Lord’s wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy, For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land.
This is God the Father.
My determination is to gather the nations To My assembly of kingdoms, To pour on them My indignation, All My fierce anger; All the earth shall be devoured With the fire of My jealousy.
This is God the Father.
“For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
This is God the Father.
Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified,” says the Lord God.
This is God the Father.
Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
This is God the Father.
Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the Lord of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.
This is God the Father.
I think too many of us believe that God just sits quickly by in Heaven after the Tribulation and watches as Christ comes, kicks butt and reigns. However, all the teachings of the OT are clear that not only does God the Father Himself come but He is very active in His Wrath and vengeance and also in His deliverance of His people.
Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
Let there be no doubt. The below two passages are describing God the Father Coming and it is God who is bringing "ALL THE SAINTS" in both passages.Zechariah 14:5
...Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
So, since it is God being discussed in 1 Thes 4, you have no Pre-Trib Rapture because every timing of the Day of The Lord is AFTER the Great Tribulation AKA Jacob's Trouble.
GOD IS BRINGING THE SAINTS!!!
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flob
Guest
Father and Son are inseparable,
Jn 10; 14; 17; Col 2.
Father, Son, and Spirit are inseparable.
It would be interesting to hear an accurate study of "the day of the Lord"...
Jn 10; 14; 17; Col 2.
Father, Son, and Spirit are inseparable.
It would be interesting to hear an accurate study of "the day of the Lord"...
This passage:
Isaiah 13:9-13
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I will punish the world for its evil,And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the Lord of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.
is the same as this passage:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Is the same as this passage:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Thus, the Wrath of God and of the Lamb are AFTER the Tribulation, and not part of it. Mat 24:29 gives us the timing relative to the Tribulation. In the Wrath of God, we have:
1. Sun darkened
2. Moon darkened
3. Stars fall from heaven
4. Powers of heaven shaken
5. Earthquake/earth shaken
So since the Wrath of God is clearly after the Tribulation that means that the Tribulation is over before the start of the Sixth Seal. Since the Wrath of God is after the Tribulation and in response to it (As I've been saying), and we are not appointed to God's Wrath that nothing precludes us from being on earth during the Great Tribulation. The fact that there is a GM of dead Christians in heaven who "come out of Great Tribulation" further bolsters my case.
We are the subject of the Great Tribulation, which is Satan's Wrath. We are in the cross hairs. Satan has come to deceive us. Wake up VCO, Nancy, Popeye, etc!!!
Isaiah 13:9-13
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I will punish the world for its evil,And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the Lord of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.
is the same as this passage:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Is the same as this passage:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Thus, the Wrath of God and of the Lamb are AFTER the Tribulation, and not part of it. Mat 24:29 gives us the timing relative to the Tribulation. In the Wrath of God, we have:
1. Sun darkened
2. Moon darkened
3. Stars fall from heaven
4. Powers of heaven shaken
5. Earthquake/earth shaken
So since the Wrath of God is clearly after the Tribulation that means that the Tribulation is over before the start of the Sixth Seal. Since the Wrath of God is after the Tribulation and in response to it (As I've been saying), and we are not appointed to God's Wrath that nothing precludes us from being on earth during the Great Tribulation. The fact that there is a GM of dead Christians in heaven who "come out of Great Tribulation" further bolsters my case.
We are the subject of the Great Tribulation, which is Satan's Wrath. We are in the cross hairs. Satan has come to deceive us. Wake up VCO, Nancy, Popeye, etc!!!
Just do a key word search for "Day of The Lord" and read every passage, most of which are covered by the OT prophets.
Yes, but they also act independently. When Christ was here on earth, the HS and Father were in heaven. Remember, Christ had to leave so that the "Helper" could come? Also, God did not die on the Cross because Christ was speaking to God ('why hast thou forsaken me') as He was suffering for us.
Paul also makes a separation in 1 Cor 15:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Paul states that Jesus reigns and puts everything under His feet (defeating all His enemies) then at the END, Jesus delivers the kingdom to God the Father. The last, (not first) enemy Christ defeats is death. Once this happens we see this:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Now, after this they are all in all - one in one. Yes they are ONE GOD but they have 3 separate parts. Man was created in "their" likeness. We too have 3 parts; body, soul, spirit. When we die, our soul goes to heaven, our body stays on earth. So we are separated but alive we are together. I believe that right now, the Trinity is separated (the HS is on earth and before that the Son) but at the end, will be together. This is another cool study worth doing...but I digress.
Daniel also shows a separation. God is seated on His throne, the A/C is killed, then the Son is brought to God.
Dan 7: (truncated for effect)
And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words. - AntiChrist, AKA Man of Sin, AKA Satan.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; (GOD) ...Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.
Now we see FATHER and SON coming together.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, (JESUS) Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days, (GOD) And they brought Him near before Him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
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flob
Guest
Maybe you can say act "distinctly,"
but to the contrary of "independently":
I do nothing from Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things. And He who has sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him. As He spoke these things, many believed into Him.
Jn 8:28-30.
The Son can do nothing from Himself except what He sees the Father doing, for whatever that One does, those things the Son also does in like manner...I can do nothing from Myself. Jn 5:19-30.
Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.
Jn 14:10-11.
I and the Father are one. Jn 10:30.
Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit. Lk 4:1.
I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He abode upon Him. Jn 1:32.
Thanks. Good idea for me.
That's because:
The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit in resurrection, 1 Cor 15:45.
Christ IS the Helper:
I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, the Spirit of Reality...you know Him because He abides with you and SHALL BE IN YOU. I WILL not leave you as orphans; I AM coming to you. Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me [Jn 20:19]; because I live [Jn 20:9], you also shall live. In that day [Jn 20:19] you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you...
It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you...And when He comes...But when He, the Spirit of Reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak...He will glorify Me...All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He receives of Mine and will declare it to you. A little while and you no longer behold Me, and again a little while and you will see Me [Jn 20:19]...
Jn 14:16--16:22; cf Jn 7:37-39.
I AM...the reality.
Jn 14:6.
God is both in Christ and God is Christ.
Father and Son are inseparable.
God, in Christ, passed thru human death
The word "distinct" should be better. Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct. But never separate. They are.............inseparable.
At the same moment One is on earth and One is in heaven, at the same time, They abide in One Another. They're inseparable. Inseverable. Indivisible.
When we die, our soul with our spirit goes to Paradise, under the earth, 2 Cor 12; Lk 16; Rev 6; 1 Sam 28. But that is a trivial point. That is nothing compared to the definition, and being, of the Father-Son-Spirit God. God is not 3 separate, but 3 in 1
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I'm out of Las Vegas.
The entire world vacations here....
....maybe the Rapture will happen before Sin City gives that flu bug to the rest of the world?
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popeye
Guest
as a rule,we do not progress higher than the setting of the bar.
Nope,you need to personally study that. You were told that
and yet here you are challenging half the body of christ that is operating in the gifts according to the word
Hint;john Mcarthur mocks,lampoons and seems to hate those that dare to recognize jesus did not disenfranchise the modern church.
He even sponsored the desecrating of the gifts in his "strange fire conference"
(See mike brown's answer on youtube to mcarthur's smear job.)
Uh,no,in fact i was kicked off 'rapture ready' for giving my testimony.
face it, charasmatics are hated by baptists,who claim to love the Lord.
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popeye
Guest
Parable of the 10 virgins;
10 believers waiting for their king.
5 had an abundance of oil,5 had barely enough for the present moment.
the king was delayed and all 10 went to sleep
at midnight they all were told he is coming and go out to meet him
now,at this point THE OIL IS THE DISENFRANCHISING ISSUE.;
The foolish realized they had zero oil,and asked in a panic for the oil of the wise.
The wise said "go fly a kite" go get your own oil.
The foolish took off,and the king suddenly showed up and took the wise to heaven,through a door,and slamed the door shut.
The foolish found the door alright,but were denied entry. (disenfranchised)
They had virginity,they had oil,they were waiting,but they were shut out.
The whole thing centers on the AMOUNT OF OIL,IN POSSESION AT A CERTAIN TIME.
this is the qualifier. Period.
10 believers waiting for their king.
5 had an abundance of oil,5 had barely enough for the present moment.
the king was delayed and all 10 went to sleep
at midnight they all were told he is coming and go out to meet him
now,at this point THE OIL IS THE DISENFRANCHISING ISSUE.;
The foolish realized they had zero oil,and asked in a panic for the oil of the wise.
The wise said "go fly a kite" go get your own oil.
The foolish took off,and the king suddenly showed up and took the wise to heaven,through a door,and slamed the door shut.
The foolish found the door alright,but were denied entry. (disenfranchised)
They had virginity,they had oil,they were waiting,but they were shut out.
The whole thing centers on the AMOUNT OF OIL,IN POSSESION AT A CERTAIN TIME.
this is the qualifier. Period.
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