When does the rapture occur?

[GaryA]

there is NO BELIEVERS on the planet at the end of the GT

Except the 144,000...

 

[popeye]

And THAT is the "fatal flaw" which prevents so many people from seeing the truth of the scriptures regarding the End Times Scenario.

For as long as a person refuses to use the biblical event-based definition to shape their understanding, they will "miss the obvious" because they are "blinded" by the [ Satan-inspired ] man-made definition.

The idea illustrated in the quote bubble does NOT correctly define the Great Tribulation according to the scriptures. These verses DO:


Matthew 24:

[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Using [ only ] the biblical event-based definition as a foundation for the study of the End Times Scenario will yield a proper result...


The Bible tells us when the Great Tribulation begins and when it ends. Careful study, based on the proper [ biblical ] definition, will show that the 'Wrath of God' occurs AFTER the END of the Great Tribulation ( with 'events' in between, in fact -- namely, the "two witnesses" / "trumpet events" - which are also not part of the Great Tribulation as defined in biblical 'event' terms ).

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


If someone wanted to they could read these verses and say "see,the GT is first,then the tribulation,then,jesus comes back.

I have never fallen for that trib/wrath concept as "exclusive",not "inclusive" rabbit trail.Jesus himself releases the 4 horsemen.

 

[popeye]

Except the 144,000...

[h=1]Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV)[/h]14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

By rev 14 the 144 k are in heaven.

 

[Jeff_56]

Except the 144,000...

(and the others, yahweh willing. few, true, but still may be...)

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV)

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

By rev 14 the 144 k are in heaven.

So - you are saying that Jesus has already stood on the mount Sion with the 144,000...?

 

[GaryA]

If someone wanted to they could read these verses and say "see,the GT is first,then the tribulation,then,jesus comes back.

Except that the phrase "the tribulation of those days" in verse 29 refers back to the phrase "great tribulation" in verse 21.

I have never fallen for that trib/wrath concept as "exclusive",not "inclusive" rabbit trail.

Which is why you have never been able to understand the truth about the Great Tribulation. It is because you refuse to use the definition of the scriptures which is "built into" the 'grammar of the language'.

In other words, you are not willing to accept the event-based definition as put forth by scripture. For example, you are not willing to believe that the phrase "the tribulation of those days" in verse 29 refers back to the phrase "great tribulation" in verse 21.

Jesus himself releases the 4 horsemen.

The '4 horsemen' have already been "released" - one at a time, during the past ~2000 years.

 

[PlainWord]

1) there is NO BELIEVERS on the planet at the end of the GT.
2) harvest is 4 part
3)The OT patriarchs are already resurrected and in heaven along with Jesus himself.
4)main harvest has not yet happened,but your rev 20 anahilation of the 1st resurrection PROVES you can not reconcile your doctrine.
5) "escape" is a provision for his people. Please try to grasp this NEW concept to postribs.
6) You have no place to go with the bride/groom dimension,or the 'times of the gentiles finished 'concept.
7) 1 thes 4 ONLY FITS pretrib.
Oh,you need to see the church in heaven ? Rev 19 should do,and that scene is DURING THE GT.

And where exactly is your verse that shows the "escape?" I see a bunch of conjecture but no evidence. Admit you have no verse that teaches the pre-trib return of Christ. Instead you use conjecture to assign some passages to a pre-trib timing and some to a post trib timing.

Rev 19 doesn't say anything about a Raptured Church. It talks about an Army in Heaven, clothed in fine white linen.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

Incidentally, the above description sounds eerily similar to the below two descriptions of dead people (souls), does it not?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain... [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer.

...I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes... “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So we have souls with white robes in heaven which match perfectly the description of the martyred saints. Nice try. You are out-of-gas my friend.

Obviously there are believers left on the planet after the GT. Just who do you think Christ's angels are gathering when He returns after the Trib?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who do you think the ELECT are, dead bodies?

Unbelievable the amount of scripture you ignore in an attempt to prove an untruth. As for 1 Thes 4:14, it is God returning there, not Christ. Christ is already reigning.

As for Rev 20, it's tricky wording.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Who are the "they?" Are the "they" those who were beheaded during the GT or does it refer back to this group?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

Who was judgment committed to? Who will sit on thrones on the earth? Let's look back at Chapter 5:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And they sang a new song, saying:


“You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, [SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us kings and priests to our God;And we shall reign on the earth.”

 

[PlainWord]

Sorry Gary, I responded before I saw you already made the point. I read oldest posts first and respond before I continue reading newer posts.

 

[SilverFanng]

2 witnesses Interpretation should include fire devouring enemies,dead bodies and resurrection,then ascention.
The reason some say it is the church is they need an "out".

Question; When is the time of the gentiles complete? That is the missing ingredient for the anti-pretrib.

I completely agree. I was just listing the interpretations that come up the most.

 

[SilverFanng]

The quote below would be a good starting place for you.Show me the groom/bride dimension in "left behind"

I'm going to be honest. I only know the basic plot of left behind from people I know who have read it. I haven't read it myself. But to be clear I wasn't saying you literally quoted the entire book, just the premise. Christ comes, no one sees or hears him come, and everyone else disappears leaving no christians on earth. Although, now that I think about it, even left behind had christians on earth after the rapture. So how on earth can you support no christians being on earth at all if the rapture is clear proof to those left behind that everything they had heard in their lives is was true. Their will be false christians at that point who will be reassessing everything they had been taught but had ignored. No christians at all makes no sense and I can't remember any verses that make such a claim. If I am wrong please post the verses that say this.

 

[SilverFanng]

And THAT is the "fatal flaw" which prevents so many people from seeing the truth of the scriptures regarding the End Times Scenario.

For as long as a person refuses to use the biblical event-based definition to shape their understanding, they will "miss the obvious" because they are "blinded" by the [ Satan-inspired ] man-made definition.

The idea illustrated in the quote bubble does NOT correctly define the Great Tribulation according to the scriptures. These verses DO:


Matthew 24:

[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Using [ only ] the biblical event-based definition as a foundation for the study of the End Times Scenario will yield a proper result...


The Bible tells us when the Great Tribulation begins and when it ends. Careful study, based on the proper [ biblical ] definition, will show that the 'Wrath of God' occurs AFTER the END of the Great Tribulation ( with 'events' in between, in fact -- namely, the "two witnesses" / "trumpet events" - which are also not part of the Great Tribulation as defined in biblical 'event' terms ).

You have given me much to ponder. I am familiar with the verses you have quoted yet I didn't notice that it said AFTER the tribulation of those days. Does it mean the great tribulation or lesser tribulations that lead up to the big one. I will need to meditate on this. Thank you good sir.

 

[SilverFanng]

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


If someone wanted to they could read these verses and say "see,the GT is first,then the tribulation,then,jesus comes back.

I have never fallen for that trib/wrath concept as "exclusive",not "inclusive" rabbit trail.Jesus himself releases the 4 horsemen.

Except that the darkening of celestial bodies is the sixth seal of revelation. And Christ doesn't return until the seventh trumpet. That is a serious span of time because the trumpets aren't blown until the seventh seal.

 

[SilverFanng]

[h=1]Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV)[/h]14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

By rev 14 the 144 k are in heaven.

Actually I agree with what some said on this forum. In Israelite culture when an important guest approached a town or city the people would go out to meet him and accompany him on the last mile of his journey. Back to the town or city. This sounds exactly like what the 144k will do at the end. Go meet him on his return journey (whether they are raptured or just die) then come back with him. I don't think they make it to heaven at that time.

 

[popeye]

I'm going to be honest. I only know the basic plot of left behind from people I know who have read it. I haven't read it myself. But to be clear I wasn't saying you literally quoted the entire book, just the premise. Christ comes, no one sees or hears him come, and everyone else disappears leaving no christians on earth. Although, now that I think about it, even left behind had christians on earth after the rapture. So how on earth can you support no christians being on earth at all if the rapture is clear proof to those left behind that everything they had heard in their lives is was true. Their will be false christians at that point who will be reassessing everything they had been taught but had ignored. No christians at all makes no sense and I can't remember any verses that make such a claim. If I am wrong please post the verses that say this.

Those left behind;
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

All believers martyered;
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes(("being the foolish virgins")), and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:


Inspite of all this,some will ammazingly believe there are believers still here after the GT.

 

[popeye]

And where exactly is your verse that shows the "escape?" I see a bunch of conjecture but no evidence.

I already showed you one.
Here is another . Not that you will read it or apply it.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Try doing a study on it. It is a common natural,REMEDY that God himself provided for his family.

 

[PlainWord]

Lately I've felt called or spiritually stirred (whichever you prefer to think of it as) regarding the end times. It started when I was sitting in front of my fireplace, shaking and in tears because I was telling God I felt like I had no idea who He was. I wanted to trust what I was being taught, but I didn't know if I could trust man's interpretation of His word, nor could I feel like I could trust myself. I told Him I desperatly wanted Him there so I could know Him. I cried about it really hard....
After about twenty minutes of this, I felt "struck" by this sudden realization.

Jesus couldn't physically come to see me because He couldn't physically return until His second coming. However, He was coming very soon... And not in the "another 100 years or more" or so, kind of soon...

I'm still learning to study the bible. I've read some great studies on the end times so far, but ultimately I know I have to trust God to give me understanding. I'm afraid of trying to form or proclaim solid beliefs about my findings in the event that I'm wrong and I accidentally lead someone in the wrong direction.


Even in making this "proclamation" ( concerning less than 100 years), feels uncomfortable.

You are off to a good start. I too share the feeling that His Second Coming is less than 100 years away and more likely even in my lifetime. Stick to the Word and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you. God Bless!!

 

[popeye]

The '4 horsemen' have already been "released" - one at a time, during the past ~2000 years.

The 1st is the ac

Show me where all earth's inhabitants recieved a mark,and that false christ stood in the HP demanding worship and to be called God.

 

[Jeff_56]

Except that the darkening of celestial bodies is the sixth seal of revelation. And Christ doesn't return until the seventh trumpet. That is a serious span of time because the trumpets aren't blown until the seventh seal.

careful here. the celestial bodies may of may not themselves actually be darkened.

Actually I agree with what some said on this forum. In Israelite culture when an important guest approached a town or city the people would go out to meet him and accompany him on the last mile of his journey. Back to the town or city. This sounds exactly like what the 144k will do at the end. Go meet him on his return journey (whether they are raptured or just die) then come back with him. I don't think they make it to heaven at that time.

yahshua told his disciples "the kingdom of heaven is in you",
and it was later that the enemy through the rcc abomination introduced a 'heaven' that's not scriptural at all , as if "out there" someplace.

I already showed you one.
Here is another . Not that you will read it or apply it.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Try doing a study on it. It is a common natural,REMEDY that God himself provided for his family.

too late.

corrie ten boom already exposed this over 30 years ago , for the churches in the usa and elsewhere....

 

[PlainWord]

Plainword,

This is getting TOTALLY Ridiculous. You are dragging up old posts just to desperately try to keep the heated debate going. You are PRESENTING YOUR PERSONAL terminology definitions, and pretending they are gospel, and Presenting "NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN." Almost ALL of the mainline Christian Denominations accept the definition of the Great Tribulation as referring Both to the Evil committed by the Antichrist, and the Wrath of GOD and the Lamb being poured out on the whole earth throughout at least the last half of the Antichrist's reign.

Frankly it appears to me that you have some kind of sic desire to keep this particular worn-out, stalemated subject in a heated debate forever. What is it, your only form of entertainment?

We really do not care that you have a strangely different way of looking at nearly every verse. You are welcome to keep your strange beliefs, which are between you and GOD, and have almost nothing to do with what the Holy Spirit has led us to believe. Why does it BOTHER YOU so much that we will always believe differently than you? Keep it up and I will just have to put you back on my IGNORE list where I had you for over a year before.

Dear Brother VCO. I was actually distracted for about a week by deflated footballs... That and work... I solved the mystery of the footballs so now I am back to my other favorite pastime.

My desire to "keep this going" is my desire to get out the truth on this issue. I know you are a lost cause. Even though I debate you, I am really hoping others who haven't made up their mind yet will see the folly of mainstream thought. (This mainstream thought is only 100 or so years old by the way. My views reflect the views held by 1900 years of Christian history)

I have no problem being in the minority when it comes to eschatology. I am comforted by the knowledge that through out Christian and Jewish history, the masses typically get it wrong. Most of the prophets were ignored and Israel continued in sin and were punished. They did not heed the warnings.

The facts are as I stated. The Tribulation is a period of unspeakable evil and killing of Jews and Christians. God's Wrath comes after the GT and is in response to it. The verses I provide prove the point.

Main Denominations??? Which ones? To which do you belong? Just curious.

Please don't put me on your ignore list again as that would make me sad .

 

[PlainWord]

I already showed you one.
Here is another . Not that you will read it or apply it.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Try doing a study on it. It is a common natural,REMEDY that God himself provided for his family.

I've studied it exhaustively. The passage from Luke 21 that you cite refers to the Wrath of God which is reserved for those who do not know him. The "things" to be escaped refer back to verses 25-26:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken...

This is God's Wrath. God warns his people to "GET OUT" of Babylon which will be the focus of His revenge. The warning to flee (or escape) is found in Rev 18:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her (Babylon), my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

The escape is not a Rapture, it is a fleeing or leaving of the areas controlled by Babylon. If you are a child of God and have heeded His warnings and are not in the effected areas certainly you can escape the things (God's Wrath) which comes upon the "earth" and stand before His Son.

God always gives a warning, repent and turn to him before He executes judgment for God is a patient God and longsuffering not wishing any to perish. For His people, He also gives a warning and tells them to leave to avoid the punishment He is sending (See Lot, Noah, Rahab, etc)