When does the rapture occur?

[VCO]

I do not scoff at the returning of Christ. I scoff at your timing for the return of Christ because it conflicts with the timing Christ gives us. That is a big difference.

YES, AGREED!!!

What about them? Saints are Saints. There is no such thing as a Pre Trib Saint and a Trib Saint. You make that distinction but the Bible contains no such distinction. The reason the Bible never makes such a distinction is because there is no distinction. A saint is a saint. When a saint dies, he or she goes to heaven.

There is no Seven years later. When Christ comes, He defeats His enemies and gathers His ELECT. The 7 years, as you call it, come before Christ returns and I'm talking ANY return.

This happens on the LAST DAY - John 6:40, 44, 54 and other places. This does not happen before the Tribulation and no passage ever tells you it does.

Revelation 20 does seem to tell us this. Other passages such as Dan 12 and Mat 13 and 24 seem to indicate a more simultaneous resurrection but I can certainly see the wicked being resurrected 1,000 years later. I am not really focused on the wicked right now other than to want to help them come to Christ.

There is a lot of speculation in the above statement.

Believe whatever you want, but know that you were told and warned.

Remember you Scoffed, when you find yourself left behind.

Yes, Sanctified is the same in all time periods, but there certainly ARE THREE TIME PERIODS

Old Testament Times,
Church-age Times,
and
Tribulation Period Times.

Plus you are wrong about the BIBLE NOT make that distinction:

Revelation 20:4 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. {THOSE are members of the ASSEMBLY THAT HE HAS BUILT, both OT Saints and Church-age Saints} Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. {THOSE are the Martyred Saints of the Tribulation Period.} They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[Ukorin]

Believe whatever you want, but know that you were told and warned.

Remember you Scoffed, when you find yourself left behind.

Yes, Sanctified is the same in all time periods, but there certainly ARE THREE TIME PERIODS

Old Testament Times,
Church-age Times,
and
Tribulation Period Times.

Plus you are wrong about the BIBLE NOT make that distinction:

Revelation 20:4 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. {THOSE are members of the ASSEMBLY THAT HE HAS BUILT, both OT Saints and Church-age Saints} Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. {THOSE are the Martyred Saints of the Tribulation Period.} They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

If your understanding of the Rapture is correct, you should full well know that the requirements for being raptured have to do with believing in Christ... not in believing in a pre-trib rapture.
As evidenced by nearly 2000 years of Believers and their testimonies, we know that the two things are not synonymous.

No Believer will be left behind. Don't make that threat. It is against Christ Himself, and His ability to KNOW who is His and who is not.

 

[popeye]

Show me the passage that gives you 4 parts to the harvest. You are speculating. Actually you are splitting one resurrection into 4 to fit your rapture timing. However, if the rapture is at the end, which is the clear teaching, only one resurrection for the righteous is needed, which is very biblical.

It is in leviticus.

Starts with 1st fruits and addresses the gleaners and the corners of the field.
Tell God he is speculating and should have never split up the harvest. Leviticus is my foundation. Where I KNOW WHAT GOD SAYS AND REPORT IT.

 

[popeye]

No, I interpreted a spiritual passage written in apocalyptic literary style designed to hide the true meaning. You, and many others, want to literalize a spiritual passage. The entire chapter of Revelation 11 is spiritual loaded with Biblical symbols as is most of the book. For you to read it literally would be like trying to read Chinese braille with gloves on.

So you see 2 men who breathe fire from their mouths and burn up their enemies. You see a literal Beast crawling out of a bottomless pit who first wages war with 2 men, like a science fiction movie - Godzilla maybe, then you see this giant beast killing the two fire breathing men. This whole thing about the 2 witnesses is right out of Hollywood. It isn't literal my friend.

John isn't taking an actual reed down to measure a temple which doesn't exist.
The two witnesses aren't really olive trees and lampstands
Godzilla isn't going to crawl out of a bottomless pit
The "Great City" Sodom and Egypt is not an actual city. Sodom was destroyed long ago. We are told it is a spiritual place, not a real place. We are told it is the same spiritual place that Christ was killed. Guess what??? A spiritual place, is not a literal place. It isn't literal Jerusalem. It isn't literal Sodom and it isn't literal Egypt.

What does Paul say?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

We wrestle against spiritual invisible evil forces. Thus Israel and the Church will be killed in the spiritual realm. They will lose the war of public opinion and sentiment in the world. This has pretty much already happened (or in the process of happening) if you ask me. If you can't understand this, I'm sorry. It isn't for everyone to understand.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


Absolutely nothing there to transpose the church and israel onto.

 

[crossnote]

Two years, two months and 92 pages later ..still hasn't happened. ..maybe on the next page?

Ummm, we're not doin too well, are we?

 

[popeye]

If your understanding of the Rapture is correct, you should full well know that the requirements for being raptured have to do with believing in Christ... not in believing in a pre-trib rapture.
As evidenced by nearly 2000 years of Believers and their testimonies, we know that the two things are not synonymous.

No Believer will be left behind. Don't make that threat. It is against Christ Himself, and His ability to KNOW who is His and who is not.

Postribs testify that jesus IS NOT COMING,THE AC IS.
That is their testimony,accompanied with mocking and belittling of us that do watch,wait ,and testify that YES,JESUS IS COMING.
Postribs teach and say no.
In the 10 virgin parable,even the foolish were wise enough to watch,wait,and put all on hold to be there with the wise to MEET THEIR GROOM.

Postribs will have to deal with the AC when the groom comes for THOSE WATCHING AND NOT DESPISING HIS COMING

No Believer will be left behind. Don't make that threat. It is against Christ Himself, and His ability to KNOW who is His and who is not.

Roughly half the church will be left behind (they are indeed his,but foolishly had other priorities)
Mat 25
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

 

[GaryA]

Ummm, we're not doin too well, are we?

"No --- we're not..."

This thread is fast becoming "not worth reading, much less worth responding to" --- especially because of 'stuff' like this :

Postribs testify that jesus IS NOT COMING,THE AC IS.
That is their testimony,accompanied with mocking and belittling of us that do watch,wait ,and testify that YES,JESUS IS COMING.
Postribs teach and say no.

This is untrue, and unnecessary. Folks who are 'post-trib' most certainly believe that Jesus is coming --- only, not before the Great Tribulation ends...

 

[popeye]

This is untrue, and unnecessary. Folks who are 'post-trib' most certainly believe that Jesus is coming --- only, not before the Great Tribulation ends...

"....only not..."

Thanks for proving my point

I belive the LOF is "coming".Am not Looking or watching for it.
My point stands,and is true. No postrib is waiting for Jesus.

 

[GaryA]

If people cannot discuss something without "mud-slinging"...

 

[GaryA]

"....only not..."

Thanks for proving my point

I belive the LOF is "coming".Am not Looking or watching for it.
My point stands,and is true. No postrib is waiting for Jesus.

Not true. Folks who are 'post-trib' are indeed "waiting and watching" for Jesus --- they simply understand that there are some things that biblical prophesy indicates will happen before He comes back...



EDIT: ( Remind me --- what is 'LOF'? )

 

[GaryA]

EDIT: ( Remind me --- what is 'LOF'? )

"Lake Of Fire" ?

 

[valiant]

AND in ROM.11:25 PAUL makes a distinction between ISRAEL and Gentile Christians:

Romans 11:25-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And this will be My covenant with them when I take away their sins.

What you fail to see is that the fullness of the Gentiles COMPLETES the all Israel. For all Israel includes converted Gentiles. That is what Rom 11.12 -24 was all about. Israel is made up of all who truly believe in the Messiah of Israel, whether Jews or Gentile proselytes..

[SUP]28 [/SUP] Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs,

Yes the unbelieving Jews are God's enemies, the election (believers) of Israel are loved because of the patriarchs

[SUP]29 [/SUP] since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.

which is why He has saved the elect.

COME IN to what? Did you not know that the WORD Church is NOT in the original Greek?
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

Are you joking? NEITHER word is in the original Greek. They are English words. but in both cases the word is EKKLESIA. If one is translated church the other should be.

Deuteronomy 23:8 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] The children born to them in the third generation may enter the LORD’s assembly.

THAT is what you were grafted into, NOT ISRAEL.

LOL YHWH's assembly WAS ISRAEL

 

[valiant]

This thread makes me laugh LOL Everyone thinks they are right, all disagree with each other so vehemently. Its all speculation based on distorting Scriptures.


THAT should unite you for a little while LOL

 

[JesusIsAll]

This thread makes me laugh LOL Everyone thinks they are right, all disagree with each other so vehemently. Its all speculation based on distorting Scriptures.

THAT should unite you for a little while LOL

Yet there must be a right, and, therefore, a wrong. But point well taken, as it's really a topic for discussion rooted in futility. I believe in the pretribulation rapture for no private reasons, not for liking the idea of escaping the tribulation, have never had any prejudices in this regard, have avoided this very attitude, like the plague, of the word of God. I believe this, because this is what comprehensive study of the matter yields: because the pretribulation rapture is in the Bible, and harmoniously of the whole word of God. Scores of renowned theologians, who breathe a lifetime of scripture, also see this.

The other views are very flawed exegesis. They are no different than the twisted exegesis of soul sleep cults use. In any event, nobody is going to say anything that will cause me to swap out truth found in the Bible, of any doctrine. This would apply to Catholicism, too, or any matter whatsoever that clashes with truth. Those things where there are multiple plausible explanations, these one can see debating, perhaps even learning something, though this also is doubtful. If you're a decent theologian, you know all the arguments, and, if in 2,000 years people haven't figured out some things with certitude, it's not likely they've done so now, likely we're left with our most plausible explanations. But the rapture is not one of those issues.

Like Catholics, some people need to go back to school in the things of God. It is highly unproductive to even read these long, blathering deconstruction treatises, more man's blather than should be, but needed to twist scripture into a pretzel and make a muck of it. Even the pattern of having to inject a lot of human noise, to morph scripture, is typical of those who work at deconstructing Bible truth. I'll only be moved, if one can make a case many verses need to be removed from the Bible. I believe this is also true of anybody who believes in the pretribulation rapture, at least if they believe so for their own study of scripture.

I've also noticed it's fertile ground for rapture trolls, as it's a topic that will never end in agreement, and, in real life, where there's disagreement, Christians I've known agree to disagree, aren't at each other's throats. It would get old, if you actually knew somebody who kept telling you not to believe in the blessed hope, and other evil, offensive things, to where you would want to move on from knowing them, period. Also, in my life, I've had discourse that caused the other views to change, people who have seen that, yes, the pretribulation rapture is there. Of course, a rapture troll never goes this direction, but Lord knows they do repeat themselves. (This is a theological troll tell: they are Johnny-one-bickers.)

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

I would IMAGINE a MAJORITY of those debating and arguing on here.. when It Does Happen and It will.. THEY WILL STILL be arguing AFter It does Happen.. the Harpazo... a Mystery!

 

[Elin]

I would IMAGINE a MAJORITY of those debating and arguing on here.. when It Does Happen and It will.. THEY WILL STILL be arguing AFter It does Happen.. the Harpazo... a Mystery!

Keeping in mind that "mystery" in the NT is simply something that has not been revealed until now,
and not something that is difficult or impossible to understand.

 

[VCO]

If your understanding of the Rapture is correct, you should full well know that the requirements for being raptured have to do with believing in Christ... not in believing in a pre-trib rapture.
As evidenced by nearly 2000 years of Believers and their testimonies, we know that the two things are not synonymous.

No Believer will be left behind. Don't make that threat. It is against Christ Himself, and His ability to KNOW who is His and who is not.

If you do the research, you will find that the at the Faith of Abraham is Believing with all your heart (An inner personal LOVE RELATIONSHIP), and all your trust in what GOD has said. Even the Jews that are part of the LORD's Assembly, understood that, and that IS what they meant when they used the word BELIEVE.

NOTHING LESS equates to Salvation. English speaking people, put a MUCH lesser meaning on the word BELIEVE, than the Jews do and especially what the BIBLE means by the word BELIEVE. We have a tendency to think that just acknowledging who Jesus Christ is, and acknowledging that he did do the miracles recorded in the Bible, equates to what the Bible means by the word BELIEVE. WRONG! Even the demons believe that much. If you DO NOT HAVE that inner personal LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ as LORD, which means willingly submitting to HIM as Master, you are a lost person who only knows ABOUT JESUS; and does not really KNOW JESUS:

Matthew 25:1-13 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. {Everyone that came through that WIDE gate, thinks they are a Christian, but they lowered the meaning of the word BELIEVE, and therefore will be left behind like the 5 foolish virgins.}
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'

No inner personal LOVE relationship with JESUS CHRIST does NOT equate to Salvation, it equates to STILL LOST.

John 14:15-17 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

1 John 2:3-5 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

Revelation 21:8 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

NO, that is not Works Righteous! If you are genuinely SAVED BY HIS GRACE, the Holy Spirit will have POURED GOD's LOVE into your heart the moment that you genuinely believed.

Romans 5:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

That is why, I can say, NO DEEP LOVE FOR GOD, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, equates to NOT being saved yet. It is out of GOD's LOVE that the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts, that our LOVE for HIM and our DESIRE to OBEY HIM spawns. We do not get to pat ourselves on the back for any of it.

No, I am not being judgmental, but I like Paul, want to declare to all the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD; and not a watered down, easy believism gospel.

Acts 20:27 (ESV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

 

[VCO]

Ummm, we're not doin too well, are we?

We are just continuing to discuss out Favorite subject, until Archangel calls us out
to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, in our new dwelling place:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (ESV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP] Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

In the Roman Army of the day of CHRIST, there were three trumpet blasts used to get the entire Army moving out to a new location. The Last Trump was the THIRD TRUMP. They were the equivalent of today's verbal orders:

FALL IN!

TEN HUT!

FORWARD MARCH!

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.


SEE, continuing to discuss these things IS HIS WILL.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Keeping in mind that "mystery" in the NT is simply something that has not been revealed until now,
and not something that is difficult or impossible to understand.

Mysteries and their meanings are GIVEN, as with the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, the Master Taught in parables, then expounded unto His Disciples Privately, they asked Him, why us , why do we get to know these things?

'for unto you it is GIVEN to know the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven... same with the Haprazo.. that Mystery, thats Revealed to those who are His, Paul revealed it to the Thessalonians..........others albeit, under the direction of the prince of the power of the air, will negate it, spin it someway other than what Its suppose to mean, its timing, the Signs before it.... Mysteries that the Master Teaches you. He does because He grants the meanings of those to you.. those who are without.. they don't understand them, and true to the character of their father, the devil, they spin it, twist it, make others doubt, downright lie about it.. but they will have their reward in the end.. indeed...

" it is given unto you to KNOW the mysteries of the Kingdom''..... Mysteries are NOT REVEALED to everybody, In Jesus's day.. it was those Disciples whom He chose.. to 'know' those meanings..

same with the Mystery of Iniquity... its moving today faster than its ever moved before.. is God Surprised? no He allows it to go forward to FULFILL His Will. the Mystery of Iniquity is alive and well on this board.. it truly is.. as are His True children on here.. His elect.. placed Here for a purpose.. Until He moves them on or calls them Home.....

 

[Bowhunter2394]

at the time of the Harpazo, do you realize almost all denominational gathering places, sects, divisions, fringe groups, RCC , that 'claim Christ'.. those pulpits , pews, chairs, stages, kitchens, balcony's, day care areas, offices, prayer rooms, all of THESE, will be full..... indeed.... and it will continue to be business as usual... indeed