When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

Watcher,

Plain, it is not about who will win this argument its about reconciling the truth...

Not arguing. Sharing ideas while looking for the truth.

I can see on your response a desperate attempt to justify your argument in contrast with reality.

No desperation. What gives you that idea? I've been wrong once before and could be wrong again, LOL.

Can you now see your desperation...There is no question about how the conversation/event progressed...
The problem is you leaving out verse 2 of mark as they were leaving out of the temple:
Mar 13:2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
They were talking about the destruction of the temple...

Yes, agreed. They were speaking of the temple in vs 1-3. No debate about that. The question had 3 parts as you will recall from Matthew's account.

Your experience does not prove anything...The bible did not specify if they peed during their way to mt Olives.

I thought we were friends? Where is all this animosity coming from? I was only sharing some prospective. Got to run. Will finish later.

 

[Elin]

Elin,

This is conjecture. There was no NT church in place at the time of Jesus uttering this.

Okay, guy, you are grasping.

Surely you know that the nature of prophecy is about the future.

The NT church didn't have to be "in place" for Jesus to prophesy regarding it.

Were the four kingdoms anywhere near being in place at the time of Daniel uttering
the prophecy of Da 2?

The NT church concept was only introduced at this time.
Could He have been speaking of the fate facing the disciples? John was not martyred.
Could He have been discussing the future church? Possibly.
Could He have been discussing Israel? Possibly and I'd argue, more likely.

You're grasping again, friend.

He was speaking about what the apostles asked about--the end of the age,
the only age the apostles knew about.

We find nothing in NT apostolic teaching about an age after the church age.

As for vs 23-33 we need to define the ELECT.

Are they a chosen, select group like the 144K?
Are they all NT Saints? Are they ALL SAINTS?
Are they the remaining Jews. I am not aware of any passage that clearly defines them. There is an OT passage that defines Israel as the ELECT. I will try to find it again.

C'mon, guy, you're grasping again.

They were the NT believers caught in Jerusalem at the time (40 yrs after the resurrection)--the pregnant women, the nursing mothers, the elderly, etc.--who were unable to flee.

I am leaning towards Jesus having been discussing the fate of Israel and not the Gentile believers/Future church. Jesus usually identifies the Gentiles when He is discussing them. The temple was Jewish as were His disciples. Jerusalem is front and center in the conversation so
I would lean towards Israel.

You darken what is not dark.

Could it be that you are trying every way you can to preserve a view that is not supported
in the gospel accounts, rather than accepting what is simply stated there, and the evidence
(e.g., Josephus' account) that supports it?

I think this is what Watcher means by desperation.

Or is it that you have "studied" mostly prophetic riddles and know little of NT teaching?

I would lean towards the latter.

 

[Nick1939]

Addressed in post #8, here.

You are right Elin, the great tribulation will occur first and then the rapture, Mat 24:29-31 simple and plain,God Bless..

 

[Sec]

I realize that probably 99% of those here are believers in the rapture and the second coming of Jesus. I'm new here, but let me say, that I don't just believe in God I KNOW THERE IS A GOD, so I usually state what I KNOW, and very rarely venture into "I believe"
The first thing every Christian should know by heart, is Romans 8:29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Now, God knows everybody before they come into this world, God knows everything.
For those who get blocked by predestinate, know that predestination and free will are NOT separate theologies, but different parts of one theology. We are predestined by God to face certain trials and tribulations when we enter this world, so we live awhile, and we come to a crossroad, where we can go in one direction or the other. We have the free will to decide which road we'll take. but everything that happens from the moment we make that free will decision until we reach another cross road, is predestined by God. our life will continue in this form, one crossroad following another until God has fulfilled His Holy purpose. by the way, most people haven't a clue what "Holy" means, it means to "separate" We are slowly being separated by our free will decisions to become more Holy as the years pass. Now the rest of the verse, means that we are being conformed or remade into perfect spiritual images of Jesus, so we can become His brothers and sisters in the Kingdom of God. Now every time God finishes work on one of us, remaking us in perfect spiritual images of Jesus, Jesus comes again. What that means is that the "Second Coming of Jesus" is a personal "one on one" event that can come at any time and has been coming every day for the past 2,000 years, which is why today is a better day than yesterday, and tomorrow will be a better day than today, because every day God removes some evil from the world and replaces it with good, love, compassion, and forgiveness, and if you take a good look at the world, it is obvious that the world is a much better place than it was in the time of Jesus, and the reason is Romans 8:29 explaining the work of God. Not that the verse did it, that would be silly, God did it, the verse explains how God did it.
Now if you can understand this, you will see that the rapture doesn't work, it's not needed, God doesn't work that way.

<><===><>
Gary Sechler
Knowledge on loan from God

 

[maxwel]

When does the rapture occur?

The rapture occurs while people are still debating whether or not it's even real...
otherwise it wouldn't be any fun.

: )

 

[GaryA]

To properly understand the Olivet Discourse "prophetic picture", one must understand that the time frame of Matthew 24:7-8 / Mark 13:8 / Luke 21:10-11 is "way, way, later" than Matthew 24:6,9 / Mark 13:7,9 / Luke 21:9,12.

In Matthew 24, verse 9 is a [ time ] continuation of verse 6 - not verse 8.

 

[watcher2013]

Watcher,



Not arguing. Sharing ideas while looking for the truth.



No desperation. What gives you that idea? I've been wrong once before and could be wrong again, LOL.



Yes, agreed. They were speaking of the temple in vs 1-3. No debate about that. The question had 3 parts as you will recall from Matthew's account.



I thought we were friends? Where is all this animosity coming from? I was only sharing some prospective. Got to run. Will finish later.

yes we are friends...with different opinion on a particular subject...

 

[GaryA]

To properly understand the Olivet Discourse "prophetic picture", one must understand that the time frame of Matthew 24:7-8 / Mark 13:8 / Luke 21:10-11 is "way, way, later" than Matthew 24:6,9 / Mark 13:7,9 / Luke 21:9,12.

In Matthew 24, verse 9 is a [ time ] continuation of verse 6 - not verse 8.

One also must understand that the span of time of the events foretold in the Olivet Discourse is ~2000 years.

The only "skip" in time - where a part of the ~2000 years is left out - is the span of time from the Olivet Discourse itself until the "first prophetic fulfillment" - the first moment when the prophecy begins to be fulfilled ( Matthew 24:5 / Mark 13:6 / Luke 21:8 ).

 

[Elin]

I realize that probably 99% of those here are believers in the rapture and the second coming of Jesus. I'm new here, but let me say, that I don't just believe in God I KNOW THERE IS A GOD, so
I usually state what I KNOW, and very rarely venture into "I believe". . .

Actually, you are stating what you believe with certainty.

The first thing every Christian should know by heart, is Romans 8:29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. . .We are slowly being separated by our free will decisions to become more Holy as the years pass.

Now the rest of the verse, means that we are being conformed or remade into perfect spiritual images of Jesus, so we can become His brothers and sisters in the Kingdom of God. Now every time God finishes work on one of us, remaking us in perfect spiritual images of Jesus, Jesus comes again. What that means is that
the "Second Coming of Jesus" is a personal "one on one" event that can come at any time and has been coming every day for the past 2,000 years, which is why today is a better day than yesterday, and tomorrow will be a better day than today, because every day God removes some evil from the world and replaces it with good, love, compassion, and forgiveness, and if you take a good look at the world, it is obvious that the world is a much better place than it was in the time of Jesus, and the reason is Romans 8:29 explaining the work of God. Not that the verse did it, that would be silly, God did it, the verse explains how God did it.

According to the NT Word of God, what you "know" here is false, and what you "believe" here is not certain.

Now if you can understand this,
you will see that the rapture doesn't work, it's not needed,
God doesn't work that way.

What I see here is your ignorance of NT teaching.

<><===><>
Gary Sechler
Knowledge on loan from God

If no one has told you yet, let me be the first,

your knowledge is not from the God of the Bible.

 

[GaryA]

During the destruction of Jerusalem--vv. 15-22, 34.

Elin:

Please read this post (#62).

"Food for thought..."

 

[GaryA]

So the real important question is when does Jesus switch from talking about the temple and AD 70 events to talking about the end times?

Did post #495 answer this for you?

 

[PlainWord]

Elin,

You're grasping again, friend.

He was speaking about what the apostles asked about--the end of the age,
the only age the apostles knew about.

We find nothing in NT apostolic teaching about an age after the church age.

I let the first "Grasping" comment go but really? First off, I agree Jesus was speaking about the end of the age. The debate between us right now is WHO was Jesus discussing? You say the Church. I'm not disagreeing with that possibility. However, I do think there is a good chance, better than 50-50 that Jesus was speaking of end times as they relate to Israel or perhaps both at least up until verse 31.

The location is clearly Israel and more specifically, Judah.

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Notice He doesn't say for everyone (CHURCH) to flee to their closest mountain?

Verse 28 is a possible reference to Armageddon which is also in Israel. When He talks about the Great Tribulation, He does not say it happens throughout the whole world. He just says it will be the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen. There is a pretty compelling case to be made that Daniel was also referring to this in Dan 12:1 where Daniel makes clear that is is a nation and not a church:

"And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book."

TROUBLE can = TRIBULATION

The key is to understand who or what the ELECT are. Jesus states that the days are shortened for the ELECT which I take to mean (GOD) puts a stop to whatever is harming the ELECT. We know that when Jesus returns, He gathers this same ELECT. Jesus does NOT say He gathers them into a cloud or translates them or raises any dead etc. He may, but my point is, He doesn't tell us this.

So who are the ELECT? We have this:

Isaiah 45:4 NKJV

For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

and we have this:

Isaiah 65:9 NKJV

I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.

So if there is trouble in Judah and the ELECT are there and the trouble is cut short for those in Israel, would this passage then not be logically argued to mean the Elect are the Chosen of Israel? We have some called ELECT and we have some called SERVANTS. Do you see a distinction here?

Matthew 24:22 NKJV

And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Does this not tend to agree with the descriptions given to the 144K and the fact that the 144K are seen with Christ on Mt. Zion which is also in Israel? Further we know from Isaiah that there will be a Second Gathering from this:

Isaiah 11:11 NKJV

It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left...

Could this "gathering" be the gathering Christ does? Notice also they are referred to as the remnant? Doesn't that ring a bell with what Paul says about "those who are alive and remaining?"

1 Thessalonians 4:15 NKJV

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We have the ELECT called ISRAEL. We have the ELECT gathered. None of these passages NT and OT refers to the church.

 

[PlainWord]

C'mon, guy, you're grasping again.

They were the NT believers caught in Jerusalem at the time (40 yrs after the resurrection)--the pregnant women, the nursing mothers, the elderly, etc.--who were unable to flee.

You are giving your theory - you are not stating fact. In AD 70 You had a type of the events to come. The Abomination back then is also a type of the Abomination to come. The Jews who fled to the mountains (Masada) where a type of those who will flee in the event to come. God gave us types so that we would recognize them when they return again.

How do I know this? Because those who fled to Masada were all killed. None were spared. Jesus would not give a command, that if followed, would lead to total destruction. There was no remnant from those who fled. Those days were not cut short for them. There were a limited number of people killed back then. There will be a massive amount killed at Armageddon, blood up to horse's bridles for 180 miles!! Birds will come, verse 28. We are told this in Mat 24, Luke 17 and Rev 19. Here you go. These passages are all companion passages.

28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

This did not happen back in AD 70. None of this vengeance happened back then. Therefore, this must be future.

Luke 21:22 NKJV

For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 NKJV

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.




Also, Josephus tells us that 6,000 Romans were killed at the beginning of the AD 67-73 revolt. How many die just before Christ returns?

Revelation 11:13 NKJV

In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Seven thousand, not six thousand. Again, another type. 6,000 is not completion, 7,000 is. Just as 6,000 years is not complete, 7,000 years will be after the Millennium.

 

[PlainWord]

Anybody else notice something new that has been seen with the Israeli flag in recent days? This picture was from July 18, 2014. Check out the Manora.

20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.


Zech 4:

2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. 3 Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left." 4 So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, "What are these, my lord?" 14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

Two Olive Trees? Could they be these?

24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery...

The world has two witnesses of God:

1) His people Israel
2) the Church.

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

The symbol is already being used.

 

[Elin]

Elin,



I let the first "Grasping" comment go but really? First off, I agree Jesus was speaking about the end of the age. The debate between us right now is WHO was Jesus discussing? You say the Church. I'm not disagreeing with that possibility. However, I do think there is a good chance, better than 50-50 that Jesus was speaking of end times as they relate to Israel or perhaps both at least up until verse 31.

The location is clearly Israel and more specifically, Judah.

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Notice He doesn't say for everyone (CHURCH) to flee to their closest mountain?

Verse 28 is a possible reference to Armageddon which is also in Israel. When He talks about the Great Tribulation, He does not say it happens throughout the whole world. He just says it will be the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen. There is a pretty compelling case to be made that Daniel was also referring to this in Dan 12:1 where Daniel makes clear that is is a nation and not a church:

"And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book."

TROUBLE can = TRIBULATION

The key is to understand who or what the ELECT are. Jesus states that the days are shortened for the ELECT which I take to mean (GOD) puts a stop to whatever is harming the ELECT. We know that when Jesus returns, He gathers this same ELECT. Jesus does NOT say He gathers them into a cloud or translates them or raises any dead etc. He may, but my point is, He doesn't tell us this.

So who are the ELECT? We have this:

Isaiah 45:4 NKJV

For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

and we have this:

Isaiah 65:9 NKJV

I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.

So if there is trouble in Judah and the ELECT are there and the trouble is cut short for those in Israel, would this passage then not be logically argued to mean the Elect are the Chosen of Israel? We have some called ELECT and we have some called SERVANTS. Do you see a distinction here?

Matthew 24:22 NKJV

And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Does this not tend to agree with the descriptions given to the 144K and the fact that the 144K are seen with Christ on Mt. Zion which is also in Israel? Further we know from Isaiah that there will be a Second Gathering from this:

Isaiah 11:11 NKJV

It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left...

Could this "gathering" be the gathering Christ does? Notice also they are referred to as the remnant? Doesn't that ring a bell with what Paul says about "those who are alive and remaining?"

1 Thessalonians 4:15 NKJV

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We have the ELECT called ISRAEL. We have the ELECT gathered. None of these passages NT and OT refers to the church.

Previously addressed.

 

[RickyZ]

You are giving your theory - you are not stating fact. In AD 70 You had a type of the events to come. The Abomination back then is also a type of the Abomination to come. The Jews who fled to the mountains (Masada) where a type of those who will flee in the event to come. God gave us types so that we would recognize them when they return again.

How do I know this? Because those who fled to Masada were all killed. None were spared. Jesus would not give a command, that if followed, would lead to total destruction. There was no remnant from those who fled. Those days were not cut short for them. There were a limited number of people killed back then. There will be a massive amount killed at Armageddon, blood up to horse's bridles for 180 miles!! Birds will come, verse 28. We are told this in Mat 24, Luke 17 and Rev 19. Here you go. These passages are all companion passages.

28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

This did not happen back in AD 70. None of this vengeance happened back then. Therefore, this must be future.

Luke 21:22 NKJV

For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 NKJV

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.




Also, Josephus tells us that 6,000 Romans were killed at the beginning of the AD 67-73 revolt. How many die just before Christ returns?

Revelation 11:13 NKJV

In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Seven thousand, not six thousand. Again, another type. 6,000 is not completion, 7,000 is. Just as 6,000 years is not complete, 7,000 years will be after the Millennium.

Just a note for accuracy, those who died on Masada killed themselves (rather than being taken as slaves).

Masada is actually a very interesting place to see. Very sobering.

 

[Elin]

You are giving your theory - you are not stating fact. In AD 70 You had a type of the events to come.
The Abomination back then is also a type of the Abomination to come.

That is your theory,

which contradicts the facts of the parallel passage in Lk 21:20-24,
which is the authoritative Biblical explanation of Mt 24:15-22.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

this millennium..are you referring to Rev 20?

Where are again the saints during this period?
Rev 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This text you quote from revelations is the text that points to the final destruction of Satan plus his angels and followers. This is after he has been released from the pit of darkness, after the millennium, and all the unsaved were resurrected. They will then gather for this great march to the new Jerusalem that descended from heaven, as the plan is to destroy it. This is when Jesus will let fire and brimstone come down from heaven onto this earth to destroy satan, his angels and all the unsaved.

 

[PlainWord]

Previously addressed.

And previous disputed. Christ was speaking to His Jewish disciples. He refers to them as "YOU" seven times from vs 1-15. He then commands, "Those who are in Judea" to flee. He further commands "who" on the housetop and "him" in the fields to "leave quickly." Then in verses 22-24 Christ uses the term "ELECT."

The word, "Church" is not used at all in any of the Olivet passages.

Therefore by your own very definition, you are inventing an uncertain and private interpretation as to it being the CHURCH that Christ was referring to in the Olivet.

The disciples were:

1. Jewish Men
2. Christians
3. Church Founders
4. Martyrs

Christ could have been referring to "take your pick." Since we have the reference to Judea, the Sabbath and the Battle of Armageddon we can locate those Christ was referencing in Israel. Is the Church in Israel or are the Jewish people in Israel, are both in Israel?

 

[PlainWord]

Just a note for accuracy, those who died on Masada killed themselves (rather than being taken as slaves).

Masada is actually a very interesting place to see. Very sobering.

Correct, they killed each other then the last few killed themselves. I agree. I was there in 1981.