When does the rapture occur?

[Kerry]

why didn't God destroy Noah, why did He escape Lot? Since He destroys the righteous with the wicked.

 

[PlainWord]

Find anywhere in the bible that God makes waste of the people that trust in Him.

No one says He does. Why do you assume God is killing His own people? The Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan. The Tribulation will be lead by the Man of Sin (which many call AntiChrist). This Man of Sin will come from Turkey. It will be Turkey that brokers the 7 year Peace Deal. He will lead a coalition of forces to include Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran and 6 others. He will attack and behead Christians and Jews everywhere within his territory with the exception of the Church of Philadelphia located in Turkey, which miraculously is spared.

The Man of Sin will wage war with his southern Arab nations, especially Saudi Arabia and Egypt which he will conquer. He will virtually wipe out Israel and declare himself above all called god, even Allah, which will infuriate many Muslims. He will destroy MECCA so that only he can be worshiped. He will call for the killing of Christians and Jews globally and his followers in those countries will obey and kill many. THIS IS THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Anyone still think this is from God? God puts a stop to it then repays in double strength.

 

[PlainWord]

Then why a rapture, we live through the trib and the King is on the throne and peace and goodwill toward men, why a rapture. It's like buying a triple cheeseburger and large fry with a fried apple pie and diet coke, it makes no sense.

It's quite simple really. We have to be gathered to Christ when He returns so that we can enter His millennial kingdom and reign with Him. But keep in mind, there will be just a remnant of believers left on earth when Christ returns. The vast majority of Christians within the territory of the Man of Sin will be slaughtered (Great Multitude in Heaven, Rev 7). The ELECT remnant are gathered by angels and fight with Christ at Armageddon then reign with Him for 1,000 years.

The first resurrection are the firstfruits whom where beheaded during the Tribulation. These did not take the Mark of the Beast or his name, or the number of his name. They live and reign for 1,000 years. The rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are over. They return with God (1 Thes 4:14). This is when all the rest of the dead are raised and the saints still in mortal bodies are changed and caught up to be with them. At this point death is defeated and we are all in spiritual bodies. The old heaven and earth are dissolved and the new heaven on earth is created and we all enter eternal life.

There is an unrighteous deception coming. Those deceived will perish (physically). Those not deceived, who keep their faith and live through the Tribulation will be gathered by Christ upon His return. There is no rapture before this. Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord when he returns will be saved PERIOD!!

 

[popeye]

The resurrection will not happen before the tribulation.

The Bible says that the resurrection will not occur until there is a falling away first,which means they will not want to hear the Bible according to the truth but according to their own lusts,an interpretation that exalts people,and the man of sin steps in to Jews temple and claims to be God.

That is because as long as the world can repent of their sins the saints will remain on earth and God will take all the saints at one time.

When the world takes the mark of the beast pledging allegiance to the beast,the man of sin,they do not have an opportunity to repent of their sins anymore and God will take His children.

The man of sin,the little horn,will reign for the last three and one half years of the tribulation,which the Bible says that the saints will be given in to his hand for three and one half years.

It appears as if the resurrection will not happen until the 7 years tribulation period is over,but some saints will depart from this earth during the last three and one half years the man of sin rules by being beheaded.The ones that will resurrect will have escaped from being beheaded but many shall go that way.

The Bible says the beast makes war against the saints,so the saints have to be on earth.

The beast blasphemes against God and His tabernacle by telling the world that there is no God of the Bible and there is no personal God that can help them,so the saints have to be on earth,for if the saints are not on earth,there is no reason for the beast to go against the God of the Bible to convince the world that there is no personal God.

Only by the saints being on earth is the truth on earth and the beast casts the truth to the ground and stamps upon it.

If the beast goes against the truth he can only do that if the saints,the truth,is on earth.

It appears as if the resurrection will not happen until the 7 years tribulation period is over

Nowhere does this dimension exist

Only by the saints being on earth is the truth on earth and the beast casts the truth to the ground and stamps upon it.

No,the saints are in heaven DURING the gt. REv 14 or 15 has angels preaching the gospel toward the end of the gt.

will not want to hear the Bible according to the truth but according to their own lusts,an interpretation

They do already. That is why the Lord can paint the pretrib rapture picture w/the 10 virgin parable and postribs make it into something other that the rapture. And why some refuse the clear comparison of the bride/groom in the jewish wedding with the bride/groom of the rapture (10 virgins) these are no brainers but they are twisted like a pretzel to support a postrib doctrine.
Postribs further destroy verses like mat 24 " 2 in the field" making the one raptured to heaven into "a wicked person" then saying "the wicked are always taken 1st" (exists no where in the word)
Further,the AC killing all humans w/o the mark is distasteful to some,due to doctrinal issues, so they say "all" means anything but "all"
Pretrib needs no such modifications of God's word

 

[popeye]

why didn't God destroy Noah, why did He escape Lot? Since He destroys the righteous with the wicked.

Yep,precisely the pattern God uses.
It even says "judgement begins w/the house of God" Postrib would differ and say judgement begins w/the wicked

 

[JesusIsAll]

Dr. Ed Hindson,

"I am not looking for the Antichrist, I’m looking for Jesus Christ. I am not even looking for the undertaker, I am looking for the uppertaker."

 

[popeye]

According to the below article (link) 24,000 have been killed or wounded by ISIS. Christians have been beheaded, young male children recruited as solders and women and girls sold into sex slavery.

UN Report on ISIS: 24,000 Killed, Injured by Islamic State; Children Used as Soldiers, Women Sold as Sex Slaves

ISIS is telling Christians to "convert or die." Sound familiar? Well it should. Also, John tells us that the Beheaded during the Tribulation will return with Christ (Rev 20:4-6). Being taken captive and sold into (sexual) and other slavery is also foretold in many places such as Joel 3 and Zech 14:2. Saudi Arabia leads the world in sexual slavery. ISIS apparently is doing the same.

For those who hold to the Pre-Trib mentality, why are the thousands of Christians in Northern Iraq and Syria not being raptured? Why are they allowed to be beheaded, raped and ravaged? At what point is the Rapture supposed to occur? Only when this treatment comes to America?

For those who hold to the Pre-Trib mentality, why are the thousands of Christians in Northern Iraq and Syria not being raptured? Why are they allowed to be beheaded, raped and ravaged? At what point is the Rapture supposed to occur? Only when this treatment comes to America?

This is a typical postrib talking point, or lets say another "pointless point"

Lets see how this logic carries over.
"since we see millions refusing salvation,at what point are we to believe Jesus died for all"???
Human logic that demands God get permission from us to see what He means is a breeding ground for error.

"tell the communist in a prison the rapture is pretrib" the postribs tell us.
I can say boldly I need no communist christian or otherwise to give me permission what the WORD declares without apology.

Only a error bent prisoner would look at 2/3 of humans destroyed,hail of fire,and flying scorpions with faces of men predicted for the future and transpose it to a jail cell.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Postribs further destroy verses like mat 24 " 2 in the field" making the one raptured to heaven into "a wicked person" then saying "the wicked are always taken 1st" (exists no where in the word)

Studying the words translated "taken" and "left" in the KJV, the former is in the sense of being received, the latter is in terms of being literally left, forsaken.

Interesting from the Geneva Bible,

"Then two shall be in the fields, the one shall be received, and the other shall be refused. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be received, and the other shall be refused."

The very old Wycliffe Bible,

"...the toon schal be takun, and the tother forsakun," the person left characterized as being "forsaken."

The KJV Greek word translated "taken":

paralambano par-al-am-ban'-o: to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy, to assume an office; figuratively, to learn -- receive, take (unto, with).

The Greek word translated "left":

aphiemi af-ee'-ay-mee: an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow) -- cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

 

[popeye]

Thessalonians 2 parallel comparison.

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and (A) by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: (B) for that day shall not come,(C) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Let read carefully these verses.

A. Our gathering unto Him = rapture.
B. That day shall not come = rapture shall not come.
C. That man of sin be reveal.= Antichrist be reveal.

If you combine A B and C.

Rapture not come until Antichrist be reveal.

Antichrist reveal in second term or tribulation/ revelation 13.

Except the AC is the first horseman that kicks off the Gt. He is the 1ts player not a mid point factor.

Also the greek says "departure", not "falling away",falling from the faith" man added that. You can look it up.
IOW it LITTERALLY says ".....until there be a departure first,then........".

Are you saying there will be a departure first?
Rapture first?

But either way," departure first" works perfectly for me cause it literally could be a "revealing" and a subsequent rapture an hour later while you guys are giving each other "high 5's".....wham......boom....gone,and that verse is perfectly fulfilled.
Interesting how the literal word supports pretrib.

 

[popeye]

Since Jesus never told of a pre-trib rapture then I certainly am not calling him a liar. Let me ask you this. If Jesus told us that He comes AFTER the Tribulation and He never gives any lesson other than this what does that make you??



Okay, lets wait for this. It won't be too much longer now. Once this happens will you come back on here and admit you were wrong? I'm guessing you won't. I'm guessing you will think it was not the right treaty and you will base that on the fact you are still here.

Since Jesus never told of a pre-trib rapture then I certainly am not calling him a liar

Uh yes he did,more than once so we could not get it wrong. ;
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

See that? gathered from heaven? How did they get there? What are they doing in heaven DURING THE GT?

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Uh,excuse me,BEFORE THE FLOOD,ENTERED THE ARK (a type of heaven)


39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

One taken,one left??? ....BEFORE THE FLOOD???? Were not the wicked left outside the ark???...before the flood???

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth...................7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Oh no we needn't watch,for the groom cannot come untill,blah,blah ,blah.

Ok,you guys hide and watch,cause we are trusting JESUS who told us,not a communist prisoner refusing the call of the master.

Now,what was you sayin about somethin Jesus never said?

 

[popeye]

Studying the words translated "taken" and "left" in the KJV, the former is in the sense of being received, the latter is in terms of being literally left, forsaken.

Interesting from the Geneva Bible,

"Then two shall be in the fields, the one shall be received, and the other shall be refused. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be received, and the other shall be refused."

The very old Wycliffe Bible,

"...the toon schal be takun, and the tother forsakun," the person left characterized as being "forsaken."

The KJV Greek word translated "taken":

paralambano par-al-am-ban'-o: to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy, to assume an office; figuratively, to learn -- receive, take (unto, with).

The Greek word translated "left":

aphiemi af-ee'-ay-mee: an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow) -- cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

Yep and I would add that the postrib error "wicked are always taken first" is ludicrous buffoonery nonsense made up by man deception. It is a real joke.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Yep and I would add that the postrib error "wicked are always taken first" is ludicrous buffoonery nonsense made up by man deception. It is a real joke.

There's a pre-tribulation Christian theologian who recently commented how he gets all this mean and condemning email from post-tribbers, how it seems they have their shorts in a bunch, don't behave like other Christian people in discourse. I think there are some truths Satan really hates, the blessed hope a primary one. Have you noticed how the ones online don't really seem to care about anything else, either, just spend their lives trying to destroy a single doctrine, seem to have little real Christian interest in the whole word of God? It's like the Judaizers here, spending their entire lives repeating the same works salvation, over and over, as if there's nothing else in the Bible, as if they just hate the law of faith in Christ the Bible teaches.

 

[popeye]

There's a pre-tribulation Christian theologian who recently commented how he gets all this mean and condemning email from post-tribbers, how it seems they have their shorts in a bunch, don't behave like other Christian people in discourse. I think there are some truths Satan really hates, the blessed hope a primary one. Have you noticed how the ones online don't really seem to care about anything else, either, just spend their lives trying to destroy a single doctrine, seem to have little real Christian interest in the whole word of God? It's like the Judaizers here, spending their entire lives repeating the same works salvation, over and over, as if there's nothing else in the Bible, as if they just hate the law of faith in Christ the Bible teaches.

Yes,but on the other hand I have postrib friends that really love the lord. They listen to teachers that teach postrib and I have to really watch myself that I hand them the simple word w/o emotion.
When I discovered the bride/groom dimension it changed everything.
This is truly the most fascinating study of the word. The levitical priesthood being second.

 

[Straightshot]

Hold your ground pop .... stick to the truth of Lord's coming call before His judgment

Most of professing Christianity think they are saved and are not today

These are real targets for ending up in the tribulation ..... a hard place to repent it will be [Revelation 3:15-19]

Here is a hint for you on the "taken/left" debate so that you can put away the post tribulation thinker's folly

This has nothing to do with the "rapture" of the Lord's true ecclesia

This is about Israel in the tribulation [the time of Jacob's trouble] ... those taken will be mortal Israelites who do not turn during the period and they will perish in the judgment

Those mortals left will be the ones who will turn to the Lord and left to enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth just after the days of the tribulation

Another flaw in PT .... if all believes are resurrected at the end of the tribulation, there would be no mortal believers to enter .... the PT has no answer for this truth except to refute it, but this is going to happen [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31]

 

[maxwel]

When does the rapture occur?

The rapture will come when it comes.

Everyone will be surprised.

Those who don't believe in the rapture...
well, they'll be surprised a little extra.

: )

 

[Straightshot]

"Those who don't believe in the rapture...
well, they'll be surprised a little extra."


For certain

The Lord will break like a thief does .... no warning

.... could be before this day is over

This is why He admonishes to be ready .... people need to check the oil [Matthew 25:1-13]

 

[Jackson123]

Except the AC is the first horseman that kicks off the Gt. He is the 1ts player not a mid point factor.

Also the greek says "departure", not "falling away",falling from the faith" man added that. You can look it up.
IOW it LITTERALLY says ".....until there be a departure first,then........".

Are you saying there will be a departure first?
Rapture first?

But either way," departure first" works perfectly for me cause it literally could be a "revealing" and a subsequent rapture an hour later while you guys are giving each other "high 5's".....wham......boom....gone,and that verse is perfectly fulfilled.
Interesting how the literal word supports pretrib.

If we change the word falling away to departure, than the verse be like this:



[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and (A) by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: (B) for that day shall not come,(C) except there come a departure first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Let me ask you some questions brother.

1. Is : our gathering together unto Him mean rapture? or else, please explained if you not agree our gathering together in this verse mean rapture.

2. You said falling away must not there, it must departure. Is departure in this verse/Greek mean rapture as well?

 

[Straightshot]

"If we change the word falling away to departure, than the verse be like this"


This a moot argument in the first place and has nothing to with the Lord's "harpazo action" to call His true ecclesia to immortality

It has everything to do with the level of the falling away of lost humanity from the truth about the Lord .... which He is no longer willing to tolerate

Why would anyone change the Lord's Word to suit a pet theory?

 

[Jackson123]

"If we change the word falling away to departure, than the verse be like this"


This a moot argument in the first place and has nothing to with the Lord's "harpazo action" to call His true ecclesia to immortality

It has everything to do with the level of the falling away of lost humanity from the truth about the Lord .... which He is no longer willing to tolerate

Why would anyone change the Lord's Word to suit a pet theory?

Brother Popeye said that falling away in that verse, base on the original language/ Greek, suppose to translate as departure.

Not that we want to change. But Brother Popeye want to translate as precisely as possible. I my self don't know Greek,

I tray to do more investigation by asking that question to brother Popeye.

 

[GaryA]

why would we need a rapture after Jesus returns, it's like tetes on a bull hog it makes no sense.

So - you are saying that "the 'catching up' of the saints to meet Jesus in the air" should happen "before Jesus even shows up"...???