G
When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
G
GaryA
Guest
I have to get ready to go to church. I will have to continue these discussions at a later time...
Do you know what the real danger of the post-trib theory is. If you are wrong, you will have caused many to not be ready, when Christ Calls Out HIS Bride, which happens as fast as sheet lightning flashes from east to west. All because your teaching leaves them with plenty of time to get ready later. WE on the other hand teach you have to get ready NOW, and KEEP READY every day of your life, or you too may be found without enough oil in your lamp.
What do we teach about preparing people for the Great Tribulation? We certainly do not ignore that teaching either, because we know that many listening to our teachings still will not take making a genuine personal LOVE relationship with Christ serious, and will be left behind. If there is still a small chance that they will become part of the Tribulation Saints, it is OUR responsibility to prepare them for what lies ahead of them.
I DO IT THIS WAY: I know many of you think, even if you missed the Calling Out of the BRIDE, you are strong enough, or macho enough to stand up to anything that the Devil who through the Antichrist, will order the beheading of ALL who refuse to bow to him as god and take his Mark. So you think NOTHING can make you take that Mark, whatever it is! Then let me ask you a couple questions, "Can you still refuse to take that Mark when you are FORCED to watch them behead your two year old boy?" "Can you watch them behead your baby daughter, and NOT take the Mark to save her life?" THAT IS EXACTLY HOW EVIL THIS ANTICHRIST WILL BE!
Therefore we TEACH YOU HAVE TO KEEP READY, while your teaching leaves many to think they still have plenty of time.
Just like GOD's instructions to the Army of Israel, we BELIEVE in being ready for Warfare and Ready to be Called Out to the Wedding of the Lamb at the SAME TIME:
Ephesians 6:10-13 (ESV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.
Ezekiel 38:7 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “Be ready and keep ready, you and all your hosts that are assembled about you, and be a guard for them.
Ecclesiastes 5:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. To draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they are doing evil.
Luke 12:35-40 (NIV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,
[SUP]36 [/SUP] like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him.
[SUP]37 [/SUP] It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.
[SUP]38 [/SUP] It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night.
[SUP]39 [/SUP] But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.
[SUP]40 [/SUP] You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
1 Peter 1:13 (BBE)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] So make your minds ready, and keep on the watch, hoping with all your power for the grace which is to come to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Matthew 25:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
Matthew 25:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'
YES HE DID, it was resurrected glorified perfect body of flesh and bone, no blood as our High Priest carried it to Heaven to the Altar to pour it out for our sins. The only man-made thing in heaven, is the scars on the hands, feet, and side of Jesus.
NOT YET, but we all will be raised or changed in the twinkling of eye to have a glorified, immortal body like Jesus:
1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (ASV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP] Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP] But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP] O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?
Last edited:
So a wedding can only happen before a war (GT) and not after? Seems to me a lot more weddings (and babies) take place after a war than before it.When the bride is harvested his "return" is not the same thing as when he "returns" WITH THE BRIDE,AT THE END OF THE GT.
If you would bother to study the bride/groom dimension in the jewish wedding you would not act like you do.
No,that is why I am here.......to guide you
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Did you forget that we have a mid trib harvest.
OOOPs,supporting ole popeys 4 part harvest,as we are taught by the word.
OOOOPs,a harvest and jesus never "returns".........double OOOOPs in one post!
Sooner or later ,you are going to acknowlege that God does not waste words on the analogys he presents.
As I pointed out in my post #2663, the Tribulation is 100% over before anything in Rev 14 takes place. The punishment phase of God known as His wrath happens after the GT, not before it and not during it and not in the mid way point of it. It is AFTER the GT and in response to it. The GT is all about Satan's persecution of God's people, first Israel, then the Church as we are taught in Rev 12:13-17. Rev 13 goes into great detail about Islam and how Satan is using Islam to do the persecuting. Rev 14 shows the Lamb's chosen and the warnings God always give those (being a patient God) before He executes His judgment. Rev 14 concludes with the two part (not 4) harvest.
"If I may retract this statement..."
popeye:
I mis-read your post -- I thought you were labeling PlainWord as a 'scoffer'.
I apologize for my error...
I do kinda scoff at his pre-Trib timing
, But I NEVER scoff at the idea that the Lord returns because I am looking forward to it as much as anybody. I just happen to know that great hardship will be faced by many before it happens.
"Thank you for helping to illustrate my point..."
The Second Coming of Christ is not based on physics ( 'feet touch the ground' ). It is based on the Plan of God. It is based on the fact that Jesus said that He would return - He would come a second time - in the particular fashion that He described.
This is why the appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus does not constitute a valid Second Coming of Christ.
The Second Coming of Christ is defined by the details Jesus gave concerning His return.
A coming ( 'Second Coming of Christ' ) implies "at the proper time - and in the proper fashion - according to the Plan of God"... ( and nothing else)
When a person understands that - according to the details Jesus gave concerning His return - according to the Plan of God - the moment He leaves His Father's throne to come back to [ anywhere even remotely close to ] the earth - it is the Second Coming of Christ. And it will be fulfilled according to the details Jesus gave concerning His return - including, setting up His [ physical ] Kingdom on the earth and reigning over it for 1000 years.
By definition - Jesus cannot 'appear' without 'coming' first.
The question and the answer are contained in the details Jesus gave concerning His return.
It would be very profitable to make a study of [ specifically ( only ) ] those things Jesus said about His return - as a starting point for gaining a greater understanding of the Second Coming of Christ. It is always better to build a foundation on those things Jesus said about something ( directly ) before trying to glean any deeper truth from the interpretation of parables, etc.
By the way -- the picture works for pre-, mid-, or post-trib.
No, the picture does not fit Post-Trib, because that is when HE is coming on a Conquer's white horse, with the Armies of Heaven behind HIM, to make War with nations that have all bowed to the Antichrist and received the Mark of the Beast.
You still have not admitted that Christ Appeared to both Steven and Paul (Saul); which throws a monkey wrench into your whole theory, making it null and void. I guess you think they lied.
Acts 26:15-17 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.{1st Appearing.}
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]delivering you from your people {2nd Appearing at, at least one of his Stonings.} and from the Gentiles {3rd Appearing either at one of his jailings or execution.}—to whom I am sending you. {His Appearings to PAUL happened on a minimum of three occasions.}
Acts 7:55-56 (ASV)
[SUP]55 [/SUP] But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
[SUP]56 [/SUP] and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.
Oh my, another appearing after HIS resurrection, that you ignored. You want to label it as a vision, I have no problem with that, but personally I think HE really was seeing CHRIST. All that would PROVE is CHRIST can work through His given visions as effectively as HE does through being there if person.
Here is ANOTHER APPEARING IN A VISION YOU DID NOT COUNT ON, and it only takes a Vision of the Bridegroom with the Archangel SHOUTING, to CARRY OUT HIS WILL in the pre-trib Rapture. Personally, I still think it will be in person, but IF you want to call it a vision have at it. CHRIST CAN CALL US OUT IN A VISION EVERY BIT AS EASILY AS HE CAN IN PERSON.
Acts 9:10-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] There was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, {Which is still an appearing.} “Ananias!” “Here I am, Lord!” he said.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “Get up and go to the street called Straight,” the Lord said to him, “to the house of Judas, and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, since he is praying there.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and placing his hands on him so he can regain his sight.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard from many people about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And he has authority here from the chief priests to arrest all who call on Your name.”
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But the Lord said to him, “Go! For this man is My chosen instrument to take My name to Gentiles, kings, and the Israelites.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] I will show him how much he must suffer for My name!”
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So Ananias left and entered the house. Then he placed his hands on him and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road you were traveling, has sent me so that you can regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
So that is a minimum TOTAL of 5 appearings after HIS RESURRECTION, and like I said, there are probably a LOT MORE. So our belief that HE WILL APPEAR to CALL OUT HIS BRIDE BEFORE TRIBULATION, remains as STRONG AS IT ALWAYS WAS. Just so you can tell the difference between the Second Coming and the Calling Out of His Bride, here is an artist's drawing of how the BIBLE describes HIS Second Coming.
THAT IS HOW THE BIBLE DESCRIBES THE SECOND COMING, See Rev. 19.
The Sword however represents HIS WORD.
F
flob
Guest
The reason that's ridiculous is that the Lord Jesus isn't born in the last 3 1/2 years of this age.
Nor is He resurrected then. Nor would the mother in Rv 12 symbolize a corporate entity and
the child an individual, or vice versa. It's...........inconsistent.
Also Israel is not the theme of Revelation, so an entire, detailed, heavenly vision need not and is
not devoted to Israel; nor is there one devoted to the generalized, historical fact that Jesus was
descended from Israel, from Jacob. Instead: 'the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy,'
Rv 19:10. And
'The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place;
and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John,' 1:1. And
'Write therefore the things which you have seen and the things which are and the things which are about to take place after these things,' 1:19.
The testimony of Jesus is His Body. His saints. His people. His believers. His churches. His slaves and witnesses. His Bride, army, kingdom, and New Jerusalem. His firstfruits, martyrs, harvest. His woman and Her man-child. Also His particular two witnesses. This is the New Testament subject of Revelation. The things which John has seen are the contemporary Christ. The High Priest Christ, in resurrection and ascension and walking in the midst of His churches. For the entirety of this age. Until He finishes producing a crop to harvest. More particularly a remnant as firstfruits, to God and to the Lamb. To 'bring Him back.' To give His the base and the 'finished product,' the qualified co-kings, to terminate this age, destroy the Antichrist, rescue the Jews, and bring in His (and their) direct Rule for 1000 years. John sees the Lion Lamb on the throne. And opening the scroll of God's arrangement. With its 7 seals. To work out His purpose. Seen in His prophecy in Mt 16:18,
'I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.'
That is the purpose of the church age. That is the finished product throughout and in Revelation. That is also still the process
being wound-up in Revelation. And that is the New Jerusalem. God, Jesus, and John neither need to, nor do, digress to cover OT history (although Rev is full of quotations of God's divine economy from the OT) or Gospel history as complete 'chapters' in this book.
And that is the point.How do you know for sure that the 'wilderness' scenario either - did not already happen - or will not happen? Remember that it is a 'symbolic' description...
Any interpretation, that purports to define or explain or interpret or expound anything in Revelation, needs to cover what exactly the text of Revelation says. It's one thing to flatly guess or on first glance, think, that Rv 12's woman is Israel, or Mary, and her man-child is the Lord Jesus personally, individually. It's another thing to fill in the details. Like Vernon McGee, John MacArthur, Dallas Seminary, etc, do not do in this case. What are the time, times, and half a time? The last 3 1/2 years.
What are the 1260 days? 1260 literal days (= 3 1/2 years). What are the 42 months? 42 literal months. What is the wilderness? Somewhere on earth where the left-behind Christians are safe and relatively safe from the dragon and Antichrist.
Is it important to know where? Not really. What does the dragon turn to concentrate on? The rest of the woman's seed.
Representing believers within Antichrist's grasp. To behead. And also the Jews and nation of Israel. For him to persecute and kill.
This is a false premise. I teach and live as if today could be my last day, because it could. Anybody who assumes they are going to make it to the rapture (regardless if it's pre, mid, post, or post millennial) are fooling themselves as there are 2,000 years worth of people who may have thought this.
The idea of needing extra oil shows it will be longer then some thought.
I know. I came out of this belief system. For those who miss the cut you think will be left behind. This thinking draws a very thin line between those whose relationship with Christ barely makes the mark to those whose relationship falls just a tad short. Such a thin line can only be judged by God as God knows and judges the heart. However, we have no teaching of any Judgment of God that takes place before Satan's Great Tribulation.
Actually, it is not how the AntiChrist will be. The area where this takes place is the EARTH, not to be confused with the whole world. The EARTH makes up only 1/4 of the whole world. It is the Muslim part of the whole world where this takes place. You have to look at this prophesy from a Jewish-centric view and not a "I'm in America so only things that happen here are important" view. We are outsiders looking in upon the part of the world where all this is taking place and will take place.
We have this famous verse that nearly everyone gets wrong, because it is transliterated wrong. It was assumed by the translators of 1611 that the Greek letters 600, 60, 6 where written. But they did not have our context today. They didn't know that 1/4 of the world would become Muslim and follow Islam and starting chopping of the heads of Christians within their world/earth. Had they known this, they may have saw the same Greek symbol for 600, 60, 6 and saw it as the Arabic Bismillah which literally means "In the Name of Allah" followed by crossed swords which is the symbol of Jihad worn on the right wrist and forehead of terrorists. If they knew this, instead of writing this:
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
They could have and would have been just as accurate to translate it as this:
“Here is wisdom! Let him with understanding reckon the multitude (peoples, nations, and tongues) of the beast, for it is a multitude of a man; and his multitude fights “in the name of Allah.”
Let me ask all of you. If the above was transliterated as in the above red text, how many would get it?
Last edited:
P
popeye
Guest
P
popeye
Guest
GodI have to get ready to go to church. I will have to continue these discussions at a later time...
bless you friend
This is what we are up against. 1/4 of the world gone insane killing for their false god.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTO3xj1VipA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTO3xj1VipA
P
popeye
Guest
You guys refuse,over,and over and over,to reconcile the PREDESTRUCTION/JUDGEMENT PICTURE CLEARLY PAINTED by Jesus.
The only thing post wrath is the actual return WITH THE SAINTS.
P
popeye
Guest
You wedding argument bores me because it is based on pure speculation. To invent a whole new additional and pre-trib Return of Christ because of a wedding parable and discard all the clear teachings relative to timing blows my mind. You are trying to shoot holes in the Word of God with a gun loaded with blanks. The argument has no merit.
P
popeye
Guest
under this mindset,jesus' first miracle is a random meaning-less flaunting and waste of power.
Ask any Messianic Jew if he is bored by it. It excites me too. So why would going to the Wedding of the Lamb bore you?