When Does Following Biblical Principles Cross the Lines Into Abuse? (A Discussion of Awareness.)

[Lanolin]

Brother Joe lives in fantasy land where he mistakenly thinks his wife is a child
likewise Sister Tracy also lives in fantasy land where she thinks her husband needs to not only provide for hs own family but needs to provide for the entire church...and he is not even the pastor

 

[Lanolin]

I always think its funny when people use the term 'Godly' instead of Christian

I dont even think of myself as 'Godly'

 

[Lynx]

I really appreciate people's feedback and hope you all will continue to share. Most of all, I hope to make others (especially young people) aware of red flags and pray that they will be strong enough to leave, if necessary.

Whenever I hear about someone wanting to "keep someone all to themselves" (no other friends or contacts,) I always think of a girl I'll call Dana (not her real name), whom I met when were were about 20 years old.

Dana was from a good Southern Christian family (I was raised in the Northern USA,) and I mention this because I'm under the impression that male and female roles/expectations are a bit more defined and traditional than in the South. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me, but I think that's important to note because I think she felt an even stronger obligation to follow her man's lead due to stronger gender expectations in the South.

Dana was engaged to a guy whom I'll call John (not his real name.) I had a boyfriend as well at the time, and she started asking me about my relationship with him.

Dana confided in me that because they were now engaged, John was pushing her to do more and more sexual things, and when she said no or expressed her uneasiness with his requests (because she still wanted to wait until they were fully married,) he would say, "Well, you must be cheating on me because if you won't do (these things) with me, it means you're doing them with another guy."

She asked me if my boyfriend did the same thing (accused me of wrongdoing if I didn't do what he wanted,) and I told her, "No way!!! And if he did, I sure wouldn't be talking to him anymore."

It wasn't just about sexual topics either -- he pretty much put her under lock and key and accused her of cheating whenever she wouldn't do what he wanted. After all, he was going to be her husband, and she was going to be his wife, and therefore, it was Biblical that she obey him in all things. Proving her loyalty and Godliness to him meant doing whatever he said or wanted done.

Dana did not know that she was in a manipulative, abusive situation because she thought this was what every man did. I might be wrong, but I think this was exacerbated by the fact that she grew up in the South, and she felt that it was "ladylike" and "proper" to just go along whatever her man said.

She eventually broke up with John and some time later, found a man of God who treated her with real respect and care.

One of the primary reasons I wrote this thread is because I was thinking of Dana.

She was young and in her first and only serious relationship up until that time, so she had no way of knowing that things could and should be different except by talking to another woman.

If I can, I hope to prevent this from happening to anyone else we can reach who doesn't realize that this kind of treatment is wrong.

Hey now, don't pin it all on being from the south. Everybody I know would recognize those red flags and advise that girl to hit the ejector seat button on that relationship.

 

[seoulsearch]

Hey now, don't pin it all on being from the south. Everybody I know would recognize those red flags and advidnse that girl to hit the ejector seat button on that relationship.

I certainly don't want to make it sound like a regional issue.

I do think though that her Southern upbringing had her thinking that she couldn't be rude or impolite in any way.

She hadn't talked to any of her friends, family, or church about it - just a rowdy friend she met from the North. 🤪🥶

Seriously, I understand what you mean. But I think some surroundings, whether cultural or regional, keep its members even more prone not rocking the boat for the sake of being "polite."

 

[Lynx]

Seriously, I understand what you mean. But I think some surroundings, whether cultural or regional, keep its members even more prone not rocking the boat for the sake of being "polite."

That sounds more like Japan.

 

[Gideon300]

Hello Everyone,

Some recent thoughts in the threads have me thinking about topics that I feel are very important to discuss.

First of all, I want to make a disclaimer: I am not, in any way, shape, or form, arguing with Biblical principles, as I believe in them wholeheartedly. Second, please keep in mind that as a woman, I am writing from a woman's perspective because most of the people who have opened up to me are women. I am not in any way, shape, or form trying to say that all men are abusers. One of the purposes of this discussion is to hopefully encourage men to share their knowledge and experiences with this topic as well.

Occasionally here in Singles, we will have the opinion expressed that the best or ideal Christian wife is one who stays at home. I myself was raised in a family where all but one of the women stayed at home when the kids were young. The one woman who kept working full-time did so because they were farmers and there was no other choice. Two women in my family were lifetime stay-at-home wives/mothers, while the others went back to work once the kids were older.

However, I have seen some instances (outside of my family) where the women were forbidden to talk to anyone else and could not go anywhere without the husband's permission. I'm thinking of a co-worker whom I invited out to lunch, which went fine until we got up to leave. She begged me to go home with her to meet her husband because (I finished her sentence,) "I (Seoul) have to prove to him that I actually exist and that I'm not a man, don't I?" She nodded yes. She was terrified of what he would do because he would automatically think she was out with another man.

Ironically, in nearly every case I have encountered, including this one, the controller who had to have their thumb on the other person at all times was in fact the one talking to other people (usually at his own work or online) and doing the cheating. It was a classic case of, "Do only as I tell you to do, but I get to do whatever I want."

But it all starts with, "I'm (asking, wanting, demanding) that you do these things (check in with me, not talk to anyone else, come home immediately, not work/have contact with others at all) because I'm protecting you. I'm doing my job of looking out for you." It may start out as good intentions, even Biblical. But what happens if it eventually crosses over the line of "protection" and soon becomes control -- and abuse?

I also think about the two girls I used to go to Lutheran high school with. One had done everything they told her to do, including finding an apartment and moving there in secret. He still found her, and emptied a gun into her head. The other was a prominent host on a local TV station -- they were very well-known as the perfect Christian family. Her husband shot and killed her at their home in front of their children, the oldest of whom at the time was 11. Being surrounded by a Christian community is no guarantee that everything will be alright.

I think of another friend whose parents divorced because her mother was kept at home with no job, and when her father started an affair with someone he worked with, he told her that since he made all the money, he would be keeping both women for himself and she would just have to put up with it. She promptly divorced him and raised the kids by herself, even though she hadn't worked since high school. But he had thought he had her under control because he had cut her off from the world with no source of income but him.

These are the things I think about when I hear of situations, whether it be a man or a woman, who is being "kept from others" (not allowed/is discouraged from having friends or social circles) and has to constantly "check in" with their partner "for their own good" or "protection."

A family unit consisting of a husband providing for a wife and family is perfectly Biblical. But when does it start to slip downhill into abuse?

Likewise, I want to keep the discussion open for the other side of the coin. I believe many men are in abusive situations but society and cultural standards keep them from speaking out or seeking help. I would like to know about how we can be of aid to them. I have known many men who were abused within their families, by both men and women, and I've had guy friends whom I have tried to encourage to leave what I observed to be abusive relationships (dating situations, not marriages.)

I must say that I am someone who would encourage anyone who is in a situation, married or dating, that threatens their own or their children's safety, to seek out a separation at the very least. I know there is much debate about this, but my own personal belief (speaking for only myself) is that God does not want us to be stay with someone who is dangerous to us or our children, even if married. I know there are very differing viewpoints about this topic, so if they do come up here, I'm hoping we can still keep the conversation respectful.

On the flip side, I'm sure that others here have also seen men in abusive situations. For example, when does someone's nagging cross over the lines into emotional and psychological abuse? The Christian community often talks about men being able to provide for their families -- but where is the line between a woman or spouse being provided for vs. someone taking advantage of the other person for money?

The reason I'm hoping we can talk about these things is because many of the people I have met in abusive situations thought what they were going through was normal. They were in utter turmoil over what they were going through, but they thought it was just part of relationships and that everyone else was going through it too (meaning that they thought should just keep quiet and never "complain" about it.) And since they were not allowed to talk to anyone else, they didn't have any other frames of reference to know that what they were going through was abuse.

I know this thread may bring out a variety of perspectives and experiences, but I sincerely that hope we can talk about this with a common goal of trying to prevent others (especially young people) from getting into, or staying in abusive relationships that just might be disguised as "Biblical principles" -- that are being grossly misinterpreted.

Thank you so much for sharing and God bless you!

I appreciate your insights. The foundation of all human relationships should be love. That does not mean sloppy sentimentality either. We have the definition of love in the Bible. Love is not possessive, love trusts people, love seeks to improve the lives of others and is not obsessed with its own rights.

Many relationships founder on the rock of unforgiveness. Bitterness and resentment are poisonous. Throw in a dose of arrogance and you have a recipe for violence, aggression and vengefulness.

Many men have little idea how to fight an emotional battle. Constant nagging will either make them explode or turn them into wimps. Too many women take on a project, "Let's make man in our image". Then they complain, "You're not the man I married!"

Men need to learn what makes a woman tick. I've watched Mark Gungor's seminars on marriage. He is brilliant. He also knows that relationship failures are not just the man's fault. He is very funny also. I'd make his seminars compulsory for anyone contemplating marriage.

One of the greatest problems is that people are looking for a spouse who will meet an inner need that only Lord Jesus can fulfill. That is never going to work.

 

[Gojira]

A searcher of Seouls said, "A family unit consisting of a husband providing for a wife and family is perfectly Biblical. But when does it start to slip downhill into abuse?"

I know two examples of crappy Christian marriages. In one, the culprit is the man. The other, the woman. And, I honestly question the salvation of both of these individuals.

The husband apparently never attends church and spends no personal time with God. Yet, he's quick to bark orders at his wife, and at times get borderline physically abusive with her, and loves to throw around probably the one verse he knows, wives obey your husbands.

The wife in the second couple never has anything good or edifying to say to her husband, and no matter what he does, it's not right or good enough. When she quotes the Bible, she uses it as a weapon against him. There is third-party corroboration for some of this.

So of course, Godly things can and do get warped and distorted for man's sinful purposes. Not always easy to see when those boundaries start to be crossed, but there comes a point when it's all too obvious.

 

[JimJimmers]

I certainly don't want to make it sound like a regional issue.

I do think though that her Southern upbringing had her thinking that she couldn't be rude or impolite in any way.

She hadn't talked to any of her friends, family, or church about it - just a rowdy friend she met from the North. 🤪🥶

Seriously, I understand what you mean. But I think some surroundings, whether cultural or regional, keep its members even more prone not rocking the boat for the sake of being "polite."

I wouldn't doubt it, every culture has its drawbacks. I never liked the whole Southern "We put ladies on a pedestal" routine, I feel like putting someone where they didn't ask to be is rude and counterproductive. Now of course men should honor women as the more fragile vessel, but the old Southern culture took things too far in my opinion. Also there was the historical problem of only putting ladies you considered ladies there (rich white girls) and brushing aside any others. I know I went to Monticello, home of Thomas Jefferson, a few years ago and they had some discussion on that.

Now I have always loved the Southern manners culture, don't get me wrong. But to me manners (also the words of Jesus!) say to go to your brother who offended you and tell him, and the two extremes I see are the Northeastern "Go to your brother and scream & curse him until you are blue in the face", and the more Southern "Go to your neighbor and tell them what your brother did while maintaining a facade of politeness towards your brother." Now I know these two extremes are not universal to their regions, but I have some relatives from Massachusetts and some from Virginia and they each tend more towards their respective stereotypes. I think everyone is affected by culture, and it is proper to be affected by culture. If you went to a house church in Saudi Arabia, I am sure you would not wear jeans and a t-shirt as a woman. Not because they are bad, but it would run counter to their culture. Even families have a micro-culture that affects our views opinions & actions somewhat I think.

 

[Lanolin]

regarding cultural mores
perhaps there is a particular 'lutheran' or church culture that has become problematic or as some people call it legalism...sticking hard and fast to the rules that it defeats the purpose (and then the rules change or are misinterpreted, like 4 legs good, two legs bad! )

then theres the other extreme of 'greasy grace' where christians pretty much get away with EVERYTHING because there is just soooo much grace applied! You are willing to overlook humungous sins because you love that person right? They are going to change they promise! Despite the fact that they are fleecing you blind.

 

[Sculpt]

Where's the line between a spouse that doesn't care where their spouse is... and one that cares "too much"?

I assume most people don't like 'keeping tabs' being kept on them. But I wonder if some women in particular would be disappointed if their spouse kept no 'tabs' at all? Thoughts?

 

[seoulsearch]

Where's the line between a spouse that doesn't care where their spouse is... and one that cares "too much"?

I assume most people don't like 'keeping tabs' being kept on them. But I wonder if some women in particular would be disappointed if their spouse kept no 'tabs' at all? Thoughts?

This brings up yet another set of boundaries that seems to be frequently blurred -- What are the borderlines between blatant neglect, healthy balance, and obsessive control?

 

[cinder]

Where's the line between a spouse that doesn't care where their spouse is... and one that cares "too much"?

I assume most people don't like 'keeping tabs' being kept on them. But I wonder if some women in particular would be disappointed if their spouse kept no 'tabs' at all? Thoughts?

Well, I'm a pretty planned person. So if I don't show up where I said I would about when I said I would; I want to be missed and wondered about and eventually checked up on. But if I say I'm going out to do this thing and I'll be back in x hours...... don't call me every 20 minutes to check up on me.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

Where's the line between a spouse that doesn't care where their spouse is... and one that cares "too much"?

I assume most people don't like 'keeping tabs' being kept on them. But I wonder if some women in particular would be disappointed if their spouse kept no 'tabs' at all? Thoughts?

I think blatant neglect occurs when the spouse doesn't care about you at all (for example he doesn't care about your work troubles, friendship troubles, your health concerns, etc.). However, if he does not ask me where I was or what I did, I would not really consider that neglect. Say I went to the mall for the day and I told him, if he didn't ask me what shops I went to or what I ate, I wouldn't mind. Keeping tabs on me is asking for specific details when what I say doesn't really matter. If he doesn't ask me how my day went, I am okay with that. However if I wanted to talk about something and he isn't listening, that is neglect.

 

[cinder]

I think blatant neglect occurs when the spouse doesn't care about you at all (for example he doesn't care about your work troubles, friendship troubles, your health concerns, etc.). However, if he does not ask me where I was or what I did, I would not really consider that neglect. Say I went to the mall for the day and I told him, if he didn't ask me what shops I went to or what I ate, I wouldn't mind. Keeping tabs on me is asking for specific details when what I say doesn't really matter. If he doesn't ask me how my day went, I am okay with that. However if I wanted to talk about something and he isn't listening, that is neglect.

I imagine you meant more like if every time I want or need to talk about something he won't listen that is neglect. Because for most guys it seems that sometimes not picking up on when their woman needs to talk is par for the course.

 

[Lynx]

I imagine you meant more like if every time I want or need to talk about something he won't listen that is neglect. Because for most guys it seems that sometimes not picking up on when their woman needs to talk is par for the course.

Aye. This is where the "I'm not a mind reader" phrase is played a lot. Come on ladies, help us out. Sometimes you have to give some pretty deliberate, blatant clues.

 

[cinder]

Aye. This is where the "I'm not a mind reader" phrase is played a lot. Come on ladies, help us out. Sometimes you have to give some pretty deliberate, blatant clues.

I think the secret is: if she seems upset just remind her that you think she's wonderful and are so glad to have her in your life and there's nothing on earth that would make you give her up. That can combat a whole host of insecurities screaming in her head.

 

[Lanolin]

Jesus words are powerful, what mere man can ever promise this?

I will never leave you nor forsake you
I give unto them eternal life, and they will never perish, neither shall any man snatch them out of my hand

Jesus said call no man your Father, cos guess what men can and do lie. God doesnt lie though.

 

[Lanolin]

This brings up yet another set of boundaries that seems to be frequently blurred -- What are the borderlines between blatant neglect, healthy balance, and obsessive control?

well things either get so bad they need to divorce or get restraining orders. In the Bible if a husband lives with a contentioius wife he was better off on the rooftop of a wide house.

So my thing would be ok if you are married, yes share a bed(room) but also each of you also need ONE room of your own to yourselves.
so you dont irritate each other to death Im supposing

 

[NotmebutHim]

It crosses a line when one party obeys from fear instead of love. It crosses a line when the other party must keep control by enforcing dire consequences for disobeying.

I know many men who leave the bar early, or bypass the bar, because their wives don't want them to stay there too long. Their friends tease them about being afraid of their wives, but they do it because they love their wives and they don't want to make them unhappy.

Then there are the henpecked husbands who don't dare set foot in the bar because they can't bear the thought of the flak they'll get from the wife if they do. That's not love. That's control by force.

Agreed.

A man is "whipped" if he does what his wife says (out of fear).

However, if a man does things for his wife because he truly loves her, then he's not "whipped".

Another word for that is "cucked".

A good song that describes the second scenario is "She Don't Tell Me To" by Montgomery Gentry.

 

[Lanolin]

whereabouts of spouses

Im thinking I can understand why some are kept at home
solution...both work at home

then you know where each other is at all times.
Also when you go out both of you go out. Take the entire family.

Dont be like Kevins parents.