What to do in church meetings Protestant Tradition v. Scripture
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When those who say apostles no longer exist by the examples of the NAR for instance, they forget that Satan copies the church with false examples of the real to draw people away from Christ. You'll see false apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. What you wont see are false priests, pharisees, etc. Satan will not have false versions of those who are already his because a kingdom divided against itself shall not stand.
He won't waste time faking a ministry that no longer exists, there's no point.
The false versions are a secondary witness that the apostles & prophets still exist.
He won't waste time faking a ministry that no longer exists, there's no point.
The false versions are a secondary witness that the apostles & prophets still exist.
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There is a clear distinction in the assigned domain that the twelve apostles occupied
and the domain Paul and Barnabas received.
Galatians 2:7
But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised (Gentiles),
just as Peter had been to the circumcised (Jews).
and the domain Paul and Barnabas received.
Galatians 2:7
But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised (Gentiles),
just as Peter had been to the circumcised (Jews).
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Mattthew 28
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Yes, they should have gone to all nations however -
`and when James, Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship and that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. ` (Gal. 2: 9)
`and when James, Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship and that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. ` (Gal. 2: 9)
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God clearly gives us a pattern for the church in the New Testament. Acts 20:7 is PART of that pattern. It shows us in part what the early church did when it assembled and on which day it assembled. They came together on the first day of the week—not the 7th day of the week.; they assembled to partake of the Lord’s supper. And just like when God commanded the Jews in the Old Testament to “remember the 7th day to keep it holy”, not one Jew that we know of asked Him “which sabbath?” They understood that every time there was a 7th day, they were to observe it and keep it holy. Where are the Jews saying, God didn’t say EVERY sabbath day so that must mean we can just decide which sabbath day we want to keep—maybe 1 a month, or how about just on feast days . 3 times a year. NO! They understood what God meant; not at all like people today who treat the Lord’s supper as something optional to be done when they decide. Acts 20 says the early Christian’s came together TO TAKE THE LORD’S SUPPER on the first day of the week. That is a PATTERN.
The fact that one man spoke (Paul) does not limit anyone. In 1 Corinthians 14 we see in their church services that several men probably took part. But ONLY one man can speak at a time. 1Cor. 14) obviously to avoid confusion. Also, in Acts 13 there were prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch and he names at least 4 men. In Acts 14, Paul and Barbara’s both met with the church in Antioch an gave a report on their work. So it was not always just one man but they did study the scriptures and exhort the brethren. That was part of the pattern.
The word “pastor” refers to the elders or bishops, or shepherds of a congregation. It was not a title used just for the preacher. A preacher may be an elder or bishop but not all preachers were. The elders or pastors of a church were required to meet specific qualifications found in1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1. Qualifications like 1) the husband of 1 wife, 2) having believing children, 3) have a good reputation, 4) be blameless …and more. Obviously not every preacher can meet these qualifications. Jesus warned his followers not to wear religious titles, so no one ever wore the name “reverend”. That was a name given ONLY to God. Psalm 111:9. And in the scriptures there was always a plurality of pastors or elders—not ever just one to rule over a church. The misuse of this office is what led to the first “pope.”
In the New Testament we are commanded to “sing”. Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, Hebrews 13:15. It’s how we praise God and worship Him. That is part of the pattern. We are commanded to always “pray”. That is part of the pattern. And I Cor. 16:1-3 tells all of the churches to take up a collection on the 1st day of the week. They were only to give as they had been prospered. They were NOT commanded to tithe. Tithing was part of the old Jewish law—-not a part of the law of Christ. Gentiles were never taught or required to “tithe.” The church of Christ was for both Jews and Gentiles. That is part of the “pattern.””
To get a clear picture of what the early church was and did, you must look at ALL the scriptures in the New Testament. As Psalms 119:160 says, “ the SUM of your word is truth.” You have to put it all together.
The reason I have not included “spiritual gifts” as part of the pattern is because they were only temporary. 1 Corinthians 13:9 says they would cease when the completed word of God was finally written down for them. Yes, they had the spiritual gifts of prophecy, and speaking in tongues in the assemblies of the early church ( 1 Cor. 14) but they were not to last and since the Bible was completed and written down by, I believe, 150 AD, they eventually ceased. The apostles could pass the Holy Spirit on to others by the laying on of their hands, but there is no indication that the ones receiving the Spirit from an apostle could continue to pass it on to others. Therefore, when the last apostle died and the last person who got the Spirit from an apostle died, spiritual gifts would have necessarily ceased. They are not part of the church of Christ today.
The New Testament has a pattern for its worship—studying the scriptures, singing, taking the Lord’s supper, praying and taking up a collection—all authorized in the scriptures.
The New Testament church also has a pattern for its ORGANIZATION. It was overseen by “elders” (older men), “pastors,”, “shepherds”, or “bishops.” These are all names referring to the same office . There were specific qualifications for these men that must be met. And many scriptures referring to them and their work.
Then there were the ministers, evangelists or preachers and finally, there were the “saints” or members. That’s the pattern for organization.
There was also a pattern for the “WORK” of the church. The work of the church was benevolence, ( taking care of its needy members), evangelism ( converting man kind), and edification ( exhorting , teaching, and encouragement of the saints.).
In worship, organization, and work—God did not leave us to our own ideas and devices. He has spoken. All authority belongs to Him and for those who work OUTSIDE of His law, He will say, “I never knew you, depart from me you who practice LAWLESSNESS. Matthew 7..
1 Cor. 13:9-10-he says THAT which is “perfect”. Meaning a thing. If he had been talking about a person, he would have said “HE who is perfect.”. The pronoun that” is not used to designate a person but a thing.
Also, in verse 9 he says their knowledge is “in part;”. also their prophesy is “in part”. That tells us exactly what he is talking about in verse 10, “when he said that which is in part will be done away.” When the perfect will of God is complete and written down so everyone can read it, then their KNOWLEDGE will no longer be “in Part”, it will be complete. Romans 12:2 calls it the “perfect” will of God. James 1:26 calls it the “perfect” law of liberty. Psalms 19:7 says God’s law is “perfect.” This is NOT talking about a person but the word of God.
If I remember correctly, the complete Bible, written down was around 150AD. That is when the miraculous gifts of the Spirit ceased. I know people today CLAIM to be able to heal, but their attempts are nothing like the healing done by the Spirit in the New Testament which is why you don’t have crowds flocking to them to be healed. . No one is raised from the dead, limbs like hands or ears are not restored, the blind do not have their sight restored, people crippled from birth are not able to suddenly walk, etc.
People who claim to speak in tongues just utter gibberish and without an interpreter as the Bible specifies.
People can Claim anything! Joseph Smith “CLAIMED” to have seen an angel that gave him a book that is more important than the Bible. All kinds of people “claim” to have had religious experiences, see visions, dream dreams, talk to Jesus in person or have had God. speak to them. How do I know who to believe??? And how do I know what they say comes from God and not from Satan?
Revelation 13 says that Satan was given power and that he can do great signs (verse 13) and that he uses these “signs” to deceive people on the earth. (Verse 14).
I have to know what the Bible says. It is my standard of “truth.” By which I compare every doctrine of man.
I know God said in Hebrews 1 that God use to speak to people in various ways—dreams, visions, directly out of heaven,,,, but NOW He speaks to us by His Son Jesus. 1 Cor. 2 says we have “the mind of Christ” in the written word. Put that with I Tim. 3:16 that says the word of God is COMPLETE and furnishes us with ALL we need. Therefore, I choose NOT to believe Joseph Smith and his new revelation.
Jesus says in 1 Cor. 13:10 that speaking in tongues and other spiritual gifts will cease when the perfect law of God is complete. Therefore, I choose to believe what God says instead of what men say when they claim to be able to speak in tongues and have miraculous gifts. I choose to believe God and His word over what men “claim.”
We have the same choice that Eve had when Satan came to her and told her something Different from what God said. We can choose to believe God and trust His word or we can choose to believe Satan and his words.
Also, in verse 9 he says their knowledge is “in part;”. also their prophesy is “in part”. That tells us exactly what he is talking about in verse 10, “when he said that which is in part will be done away.” When the perfect will of God is complete and written down so everyone can read it, then their KNOWLEDGE will no longer be “in Part”, it will be complete. Romans 12:2 calls it the “perfect” will of God. James 1:26 calls it the “perfect” law of liberty. Psalms 19:7 says God’s law is “perfect.” This is NOT talking about a person but the word of God.
If I remember correctly, the complete Bible, written down was around 150AD. That is when the miraculous gifts of the Spirit ceased. I know people today CLAIM to be able to heal, but their attempts are nothing like the healing done by the Spirit in the New Testament which is why you don’t have crowds flocking to them to be healed. . No one is raised from the dead, limbs like hands or ears are not restored, the blind do not have their sight restored, people crippled from birth are not able to suddenly walk, etc.
People who claim to speak in tongues just utter gibberish and without an interpreter as the Bible specifies.
People can Claim anything! Joseph Smith “CLAIMED” to have seen an angel that gave him a book that is more important than the Bible. All kinds of people “claim” to have had religious experiences, see visions, dream dreams, talk to Jesus in person or have had God. speak to them. How do I know who to believe??? And how do I know what they say comes from God and not from Satan?
Revelation 13 says that Satan was given power and that he can do great signs (verse 13) and that he uses these “signs” to deceive people on the earth. (Verse 14).
I have to know what the Bible says. It is my standard of “truth.” By which I compare every doctrine of man.
I know God said in Hebrews 1 that God use to speak to people in various ways—dreams, visions, directly out of heaven,,,, but NOW He speaks to us by His Son Jesus. 1 Cor. 2 says we have “the mind of Christ” in the written word. Put that with I Tim. 3:16 that says the word of God is COMPLETE and furnishes us with ALL we need. Therefore, I choose NOT to believe Joseph Smith and his new revelation.
Jesus says in 1 Cor. 13:10 that speaking in tongues and other spiritual gifts will cease when the perfect law of God is complete. Therefore, I choose to believe what God says instead of what men say when they claim to be able to speak in tongues and have miraculous gifts. I choose to believe God and His word over what men “claim.”
We have the same choice that Eve had when Satan came to her and told her something Different from what God said. We can choose to believe God and trust His word or we can choose to believe Satan and his words.
Did you have a person interning the unknown tongues? Because 1 Cor. 14:27-28 says if there is no interpreter the ones speaking in tongues are to keep silent.
Did the church in the Bible use instruments of music in their meetings? I believe history will verify that they did not. Their singing was acapella. Wouldn’t adding instruments be “adding” to God’s word and a violation of Revelation 22:18-19? .
Did the church in the Bible use instruments of music in their meetings? I believe history will verify that they did not. Their singing was acapella. Wouldn’t adding instruments be “adding” to God’s word and a violation of Revelation 22:18-19? .
Tongues has different applications yet all are supposed to be controlled by the Holy Spirit. If while in a congregation meeting then an interpreter should be present. According to Pauls teaching even then a limit of 2 or at most 3 messages in tongues is needed to keep proper order for the entire meeting. People in attendance were expected to know you move in certain gifts. When unsure that an interpreter was present it's probably better to not quench the Spirit and speak out by faith that someone present will be give an interpretation
Another use of tongues is in prayer. Sometimes we don't know how to pray for a given need and the person praying can shift into tongues and let the Holy Spirit take over. It is not necessary that we understand what we say as it is a leap of faith to pray in such a manner.
Another use is in worship (different from praise). Sometimes we cannot offer correct worship or express our love for the Father so by faith we again shift into tongues and let the Holy Spirit worship through us.
In these 3 examples, tongues bypasses the conscious mind a lets us pray or worship saying things that we won't allow ourselves to say. For example would you pray for more tribulation in order to grow in patience?
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Cameron gave a good answer to the music part of your question
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No, it says each man is to set aside money on the first day of the week.
You misrepresent what he passage says:
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (NKJV)
Paul wrote of the Corinthians coming behind in no spiritual gift while waiting for the Lord Jesus to come back.
I Corinthians 1
7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(NKJV)
Also, chapter 1 speaks of the resurrection at the return of Christ. Paul was waiting for something perfect to come that would make his speech, knowledge, and understanding like that of the child. The canon did not do that, but he will be resurrected immortal one day.
This is one of those cases where your advice about looking at all scripture is important. Scripture also indicates that the Spirit could be imparted without the laying on of hands as in Acts 2, and as when Paul received the Spirit.
Acts 9
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Ananias was not one of the twelve apostles. It may be that one of the twelve laid hands on him, but we do not know for sure.
Timothy had a gift in him given by prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.
Jude warned about false brethren who have not the Spirit in his epistle. Paul wrote that the Holy Ghost is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
You misrepresent what he passage says:
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (NKJV)
Paul wrote of the Corinthians coming behind in no spiritual gift while waiting for the Lord Jesus to come back.
I Corinthians 1
7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(NKJV)
Also, chapter 1 speaks of the resurrection at the return of Christ. Paul was waiting for something perfect to come that would make his speech, knowledge, and understanding like that of the child. The canon did not do that, but he will be resurrected immortal one day.
This is one of those cases where your advice about looking at all scripture is important. Scripture also indicates that the Spirit could be imparted without the laying on of hands as in Acts 2, and as when Paul received the Spirit.
Acts 9
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Ananias was not one of the twelve apostles. It may be that one of the twelve laid hands on him, but we do not know for sure.
Timothy had a gift in him given by prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.
Jude warned about false brethren who have not the Spirit in his epistle. Paul wrote that the Holy Ghost is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Yes. This this is the lexical definition. But in the context of the ministry of Christ and subsequently that of the apostles, it goes a lot further.
1. An apostle of Christ was a man who was specifically chosen out of his disciples to become one who would have apostolic authority and also perform miracles.
2. The apostles of Christ were primarily Galileans, and Judas was deliberately selected to be the one who would betray Christ.
3. The names of the twelve apostles were:
Simon Peter (also called Cephas) and Andrew his brother,
James and John the sons of Zebedee,
Philip and Bartholomew (also called Nathanael),
Thomas and Matthew (also called Levi),
James the son of Alphaeus and Lebbaeus (his brother, also called Thaddeus and Judas),
Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot (Judas replaced by Paul).
You could say that this list gives the names in their order of importance. There were three sets of brothers, and there were also family relationships.
4. Christ first sent these 12 to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, and to perform miracles. (Later He sent seventy others).
5. They were companions of Christ throughout his ministry, but forsook Him after He was taken prisoner (which He expected since it was prophesied). So this is another criterion.
6. After His resurrection, Christ appeared to ten of them, and later on to Thomas who was absent. So another criterion for being an apostle is that they were eye-witnesses to the Risen Savior and he had appeared to them personally (this also applied to Paul). And since Revelation 21:14 tells us that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb. Anyone else who was incidentally called an apostle was because he was a sent one accompanying an apostle.
7. Then Christ met them at some of them at the Sea of Tiberias, following which He remained in Galilee for 40 days teaching his apostles.
8. When He ascended He told them to wait in Jerusalem and that they would receive power to preach the Gospel, beginning in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria, and then to the uttermost parts of the world.
9. On the Day of Pentecost, they were all gathered together and received the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. Peter preached and many Jews were converted.
10. The apostles remained in Jerusalem for a while, then scattered after the persecution of Christians.
11. While all are not seen in Acts, some are shown to have done miracles during their ministry. Another important criteria for being an apostle was that they performed "signs, wonders, and miracles. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb 2:3,4) And Paul established His apostleship by saying that he too had performed these miracles. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor 12:12)
12. The apostles and prophets were FOUNDATIONAL to the Church, and that is another criterion. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Eph 2:20-22)
For us today, that foundation is found in the divinely inspired writings of the apostles in the NT. Peter, Paul, and John were all apostle-prophets. And John made it clear that all genuine prophecies had come to an end. Paul made it clear that all genuine tongues had also come to an end.
1. An apostle of Christ was a man who was specifically chosen out of his disciples to become one who would have apostolic authority and also perform miracles.
2. The apostles of Christ were primarily Galileans, and Judas was deliberately selected to be the one who would betray Christ.
3. The names of the twelve apostles were:
Simon Peter (also called Cephas) and Andrew his brother,
James and John the sons of Zebedee,
Philip and Bartholomew (also called Nathanael),
Thomas and Matthew (also called Levi),
James the son of Alphaeus and Lebbaeus (his brother, also called Thaddeus and Judas),
Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot (Judas replaced by Paul).
You could say that this list gives the names in their order of importance. There were three sets of brothers, and there were also family relationships.
4. Christ first sent these 12 to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, and to perform miracles. (Later He sent seventy others).
5. They were companions of Christ throughout his ministry, but forsook Him after He was taken prisoner (which He expected since it was prophesied). So this is another criterion.
6. After His resurrection, Christ appeared to ten of them, and later on to Thomas who was absent. So another criterion for being an apostle is that they were eye-witnesses to the Risen Savior and he had appeared to them personally (this also applied to Paul). And since Revelation 21:14 tells us that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb. Anyone else who was incidentally called an apostle was because he was a sent one accompanying an apostle.
7. Then Christ met them at some of them at the Sea of Tiberias, following which He remained in Galilee for 40 days teaching his apostles.
8. When He ascended He told them to wait in Jerusalem and that they would receive power to preach the Gospel, beginning in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria, and then to the uttermost parts of the world.
9. On the Day of Pentecost, they were all gathered together and received the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. Peter preached and many Jews were converted.
10. The apostles remained in Jerusalem for a while, then scattered after the persecution of Christians.
11. While all are not seen in Acts, some are shown to have done miracles during their ministry. Another important criteria for being an apostle was that they performed "signs, wonders, and miracles. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb 2:3,4) And Paul established His apostleship by saying that he too had performed these miracles. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor 12:12)
12. The apostles and prophets were FOUNDATIONAL to the Church, and that is another criterion. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Eph 2:20-22)
For us today, that foundation is found in the divinely inspired writings of the apostles in the NT. Peter, Paul, and John were all apostle-prophets. And John made it clear that all genuine prophecies had come to an end. Paul made it clear that all genuine tongues had also come to an end.