Corection to a previpus post. In Matthew 24 tells Jesus fisciple what not to do during the tribulation
What is the resurrection of bodies for?
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Correction to my previous post: should read Lk12:36-37,40,42-44 (not 26-37)
Jesus used [and so did Paul, by the way] a "proleptic 'you'" (which means, basically, "all those in the future of the same category"), so in His Olivet Discourse, and elsewhere, Jesus is addressing those to whom the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom was promised (in Acts 1:6, they ask Him about it, and He does not tell them they were INCORRECT about that [proper] expectation, and His response just indicates they did not understand the TIMING of that proper expectation [with regard to "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" and their proper understanding OF "the age [singular] to come" (what we call the earthly MK)]
Back later tonight!
Jesus used [and so did Paul, by the way] a "proleptic 'you'" (which means, basically, "all those in the future of the same category"), so in His Olivet Discourse, and elsewhere, Jesus is addressing those to whom the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom was promised (in Acts 1:6, they ask Him about it, and He does not tell them they were INCORRECT about that [proper] expectation, and His response just indicates they did not understand the TIMING of that proper expectation [with regard to "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" and their proper understanding OF "the age [singular] to come" (what we call the earthly MK)]
Back later tonight!
Something stands up but you can also stand up in a new body. Can you prove the dead in Christ go back to their old bodies? I can prove they don't. But you first
If Jesus is speaking to all in the same category that is an argument against pretrib. He was talking to His own disciples. During the tribulation if someone tells them and their group here is Christ or there, Jesus says go not forth. Pretrib has us in heaven with them and with Jesus during that time.Correction to my previous post: should read Lk12:36-37,40,42-44 (not 26-37)
Jesus used [and so did Paul, by the way] a "proleptic 'you'" (which means, basically, "all those in the future of the same category"), so in His Olivet Discourse, and elsewhere, Jesus is addressing those to whom the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom was promised (in Acts 1:6, they ask Him about it, and He does not tell them they were INCORRECT about that [proper] expectation, and His response just indicates they did not understand the TIMING of that proper expectation [with regard to "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" and their proper understanding OF "the age [singular] to come" (what we call the earthly MK)]
Back later tonight!
The warning not to go forth when one says here is Christ applies here on the earth where many saints will be.
Something stands up but you can also stand up in a new body. Can you prove the dead in Christ go back to their old bodies? I can prove they don't. But you first
John says that we shall be like Him. Jesus old body was transformed. Paul said if the dead are not raised, then Christ is not risen. The implication is that this is the same type of resurrection Jesus experienced. What do you think is proof that the old body will not be rasied in a transformed state?
Paul says "likeness" so not exactly the same thing. We don't all die exactly like Christ did so our resurrection isn't going to be exactly the same either. We will be resurrected into an immortal body but unlike Christ, don't expect to have any of my current scars retained nor do expect to receive my old body back and then be changed like living are at Christ's return.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
The new resurrected body is from heaven and is in heaven!
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.
We are getting into specultion, but I'd expect Paul to have the 'marks of Christ' in his body, or beheaded martyrs to have some scars where their necks were chopped off, for example. I don't know about scars from being clumsy or getting into car accidents.
Notice it says resurrection-- not the creation of a completely different body for someone's disembodied spirit.
Paul also says we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.
Why would these verses in II Corinthians be exclusively about the resurrection of the dead and not the transformation of the saints (at the 'rapture' as many call it)?
Paul may mean, here, that there is something heavenly coming down. What we may become may be the heavenly thing merging with the bodies of those who are living. I'd expect the same of those resurrected. It is a resurrection after all, not a separate creation of someone else who just has the memories of the first individual.
Another thing to consider is that John is shown the bride in Revelation. Then he sees a city, the New Jerusalem. That is coming down out of heaven.
Here the individual is being clothed with something. Another, separate individual is not created in heaven to replace the individual on earth.
[quoted]
Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven.[/quote]
Clothed with. Clothed with something heavenly. Clothed with immortality. That is different from a separate body being created in heaven.
That's not resurrection you are writing about. That's another body being created. Paul writes of being clothed with something, not another version of ourselves being created.
I hope this doesn't take the OP of the rails, but I think it may have some relevance.
All matter is comprised of energy.
Scientists are unaware why matter coalesces the way it does in life forms.
There is some sort of underlying force, and or written program to make atoms/energy in every living things coalesce as they do.
I can then only speculate that when the resurrection of all occurs, that some will then be resurrected into their former carnal states, as this will be what they have chosen to live for.
In contrast, they who overcome their carnal inclinations will have their material atoms/energy changed.
I could be wrong, and atoms may not even play a part in a spiritual body, as atoms are matter, and not spirit.
All matter is comprised of energy.
Scientists are unaware why matter coalesces the way it does in life forms.
There is some sort of underlying force, and or written program to make atoms/energy in every living things coalesce as they do.
I can then only speculate that when the resurrection of all occurs, that some will then be resurrected into their former carnal states, as this will be what they have chosen to live for.
In contrast, they who overcome their carnal inclinations will have their material atoms/energy changed.
I could be wrong, and atoms may not even play a part in a spiritual body, as atoms are matter, and not spirit.
And that's exactly what Paul says happens for the saints in heaven when they resurrect into new bodies that were in heaven for them. All they have to wait for is time for that bodily resurrection. Have any scriptures that say the dead in Christ resurrect back into their dead bodies on Earth? I can't find anything. Only the unsaved return to their bodies...
1Co_15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
That proves what I been saying. spiritual body is different than natural body. The saved do not receive their old bodies back but new ones reserved in heaven as the other verse declares.
2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Again, when we die we leave this body and present with the Lord.
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
The spiritual body is in heaven!
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Here our human body is likened to a "house" and our spiritual body of the resurrection as a "building of God" which originates from heaven.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?
If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body.
Actually it means to have physical life again, "to stand up". It can be back in a former body or it can be in a new body.
(anudder guy that can't post the ENTIRE passage of Scripture........no wonder understanding is so very sad)
38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal mustput on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Try reading all of it dude............
I have read it all "dude". What I have presented remains factual. Have any verses that say the dead in Christ return to their old bodies?
That isn't true. The bible states our heavenly body is in heaven. The resurrection clearly happens there and the old dead body is never returned to. So far no one has presented anything to show otherwise...just name calling and the typical disagreements without biblical support.