What if you die before water baptism?

[Komentaja]

This is a thread for people who believe water baptism is required for salvation, if you aren't that type of person, then obviously you don't need to answer this question, as I know you will just say the man is saved, as water isnt required.

Hypothetical situations that are often brought up by people to argue against baptismal regeneration are:

1. What about someone who is ill, about to die, cries out to God, asks Jesus to save them, will they die lost because they didn't have enough time to get baptized?

2. What about someone who is on a stranded island and has no one to baptize him, dies there, will he die lost?

In my opinion both of these arguments deserve a proper response, which is why I am making this thread. Give me your case, you who believe baptism in water is required for salvation.

PS I hope this thread isnt gonna turn into 50 responses and 0 answers and everyone just saying "Its not required for salvation because of such and such." I get it, I know the arguments both ways, but im just asking our baptismal regeneration people here to answer these. Thank you for understanding.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello @Komentaja, the RCC insists that water baptism is required to be saved, except in certain, special cases.

See below.

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM​

​

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.​

​

However, there are exceptions to the above, such as the "baptism of blood" and the "baptism of desire" (which are explained below in this Catechism excerpt).

​

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.​

​

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.​

​

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. ~Catechism of the Catholic Church​

Some of our Protestant denominations also believe in the necessity of water baptism to be saved, such as the Churches of Christ/Christian Churches, but some go a step further than the RCC by allowing for no exceptions whatsoever.

I was, in fact, part of an ecumenical prison ministry where I got to experience this 'no exceptions' rule, firsthand. Pastors from the various denominations took turns preaching for Sunday morning services, and when it was the local Christian Church's Sunday to preach, the topic of the necessity of saving faith PLUS water baptism was broached.

I don't believe that anyone was facing a life sentence in the area of the prison that we were in that particular Sunday, but there were a number of men who had a decade or two to go before they would/could be released, so one of them asked this question (of the Christian Church's pastor) at the end of the service, "since I cannot be baptized* in here, what happens to me if I die before I get out?"

The answer that he was given from the pulpit was, "then God didn't want you to be saved"

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - as important as I believe that water baptism is, I do not believe that anyone is saved by it, and I am somewhat horrified by the "no exclusions" clause that is held by a couple of the Protestant denominations who teach that it is (salvific) .. just FYI.

 

[Deuteronomy]

So, the answer to both of your questions in the OP is, "it depends" (on the particular beliefs that a church or denomination holds to, as you can clearly see from the examples in my last post).

 

[Moses_Young]

This is a thread for people who believe water baptism is required for salvation, if you aren't that type of person, then obviously you don't need to answer this question, as I know you will just say the man is saved, as water isnt required.

I'm not the type of person that you wanted to answer your question, but for those who are, doesn't the bible say more about circumcision being required for entering into a covenant with God than baptism? Why don't such people believe circumcision is required, given that God said circumcision was to be an everlasting covenant, but didn't say that about baptism?

 

[Komentaja]

So, the answer to both of your questions in the OP is, "it depends" (on the particular beliefs that a church or denomination holds to, as you can clearly see from the examples in my last post).

Quite a brutal response by some. The RCC answer shows a bit more grace which is surprising.

 

[Komentaja]

I'm not the type of person that you wanted to answer your question, but for those who are, doesn't the bible say more about circumcision being required for entering into a covenant with God than baptism? Why don't such people believe circumcision is required, given that God said circumcision was to be an everlasting covenant, but didn't say that about baptism?

They would say circumcision is replaced by baptism today.

Colossians 2:11-12

 

[SomeDisciple]

If hydro-baptismal regeneration was a thing; then these hypotheticals simply would not happen to people who believed. It's not like some unfortunate circumstance could prevent you from being saved; or stop God from doing anything. Either circumstances would change in your favor; or they would never be allowed to happen in the first place.

 

[selahsays]

Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior = circumcision of the ❤️.

 

[Moses_Young]

Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior = circumcision of the ❤️.

My point was that God was quite explicit with what He intended by physical circumcision ( ✂️ + 🩹 rather than ✂️ + ❤️), and that it was to be an "everlasting covenant". So if the requirement for physical circumcision is fulfilled in Christ, how much moreso for water baptism, which was never commanded as a requirement for being in covenant with God? (A commandment yes, but requirement no).

(I do agree circumcision of the ❤️ and being baptised into Christ is necessary for the New Covenant, but these are spiritual rather than physical).

 

[Moses_Young]

They would say circumcision is replaced by baptism today.

Colossians 2:11-12

So associating the spiritual circumcision of the heart with the physical baptism of the body? Wouldn't they agree that it makes more sense for physical circumcision to be associated with physical baptism, and circumcision of the heart with being baptised into Christ?

 

[DaughterofGOD1625]

The thief on the cross wasn't baptised :

Luke 23:39-43

New Living Translation

39 One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed, “So you’re the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself—and us, too, while you’re at it!”
40 But the other criminal protested, “Don’t you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? 41 We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn’t done anything wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”
43 And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Baptism signifies new life in CHRIST yes, following JESUS' example in water baptism yes but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean the person is not saved.

 

[DaughterofGOD1625]

Also Acts 16:31 BELIEVE on the LORD JESUS CHRIST and thou shall be SAVED you and your household. Believing is what saves not baptism. Quite frankly I know tons of persons who got baptised and no lie as soon as they got out the water went back to their bad habits. Thankfully many of them fully gave their lives to CHRIST, but it just goes to show Baptism does not save or change you. Your relationship with CHRIST does.

 

[Moses_Young]

Also Acts 16:31 BELIEVE on the LORD JESUS CHRIST and thou shall be SAVED you and your household. Believing is what saves not baptism. Quite frankly I know tons of persons who got baptised and no lie as soon as they got out the water went back to their bad habits. Thankfully many of them fully gave their lives to CHRIST, but it just goes to show Baptism does not save or change you. Your relationship with CHRIST does.

Man seems to always want to contribute to his own salvation, but those who know Christ know that he can't.

1 Corinthians 1:22 - 24
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[bluto]

They have no case, at least not according to the Bible. Acts 10:44-48, While Peter was still speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. Vs45. And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, (why were they amazed?) because the GIFT of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also, (why or because) Vs46, For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

Vs47, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have (past tense) received the Holy Spirit as we did, can he? Vs48, And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."

It is extremely clear that the Gentiles heard the word of God first, believed and then they were water baptized. Also, another poster brought up the thief on the cross who was saved without being water baptized. Since the thief was saved before why in the New Testament would God make it harder to be saved by requiring water baptism after believing?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Eli1]

Cool Salvation topic.

All i have to say is that if you treat Salvation as a technical document you will have a lot of technical questions like the OP and a million other cases or scenarios.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

They would say circumcision is replaced by baptism today.

Colossians 2:11-12

Or they might see this and undersrsnd circumcision isn’t necassary in the New Testament when all the apostles and church elders got together her and made it clear

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.


(?Long discussion then the decision )

forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-6, 24‬ ‭


Circumcision was a sign of the old covenant peoples made through the flesh of Abraham

“And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Baptism is the new covenant token of the covenant between God and all people




“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The nt is really clear that circumcision isnt part of the new covenant but that baptism is an early part of the new covenant based on the eternal
Promises to Abraham and his seed Jesus Christ who we are baptized into

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Komentaja]

So associating the spiritual circumcision of the heart with the physical baptism of the body? Wouldn't they agree that it makes more sense for physical circumcision to be associated with physical baptism, and circumcision of the heart with being baptised into Christ?

It is funny because usually people in this camp LOVE to spiritualize any OT prophecies regarding israel.
Thats all spiritual but a spiritual circumcision? NOPE. Its nothing but water baptism. Let me tell you buddy

 

[Komentaja]

Cool Salvation topic.

All i have to say is that if you treat Salvation as a technical document you will have a lot of technical questions like the OP and a million other cases or scenarios.

This is also true. I hate how we have come to this and im part of this problem. Im a western man so in my mind, its a check list of things. Its a manual, its a step 1, step 2, step 3.

Eastern people did not operate with that type of logic, it was more of "block logic" as Dr Solberg put it.

What do you say regarding this subject though?

 

[Eli1]

This is also true. I hate how we have come to this and im part of this problem. Im a western man so in my mind, its a check list of things. Its a manual, its a step 1, step 2, step 3.

Eastern people did not operate with that type of logic, it was more of "block logic" as Dr Solberg put it.

What do you say regarding this subject though?

I mentioned it quickly before but i believe in the Now because the Kingdom of God is here and NOW. So everything begins NOW and Revelations says that we have a glorious future, but we are not in the future, we are in the Now and we should not become content with a reward in the future, but with the reward and the blessing we have now to know Jesus Christ who gives us strength and hope to overcome all sufferings.
This is the theology of Theosis in regards to Salvation (full details here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Christian_theology) and in plain English it means that : God is the ultimate judge on who goes to heaven or hell, our best response to our separation from God since the garden, is to be more like Christ in an infinite and daily process which keeps up grounded in the now.
This sanctification gives us strength to stay unaffected in a fallen world and allows us to be in the middle of the worst sins without participating in them or judging the sinners. We live by example, imitating Christ from the heart, not as robots, but because of the Joy that we get from His life and Promise and the Holy Spirit that guides us.

 

[Komentaja]

Or they might see this and undersrsnd circumcision isn’t necassary in the New Testament when all the apostles and church elders got together her and made it clear

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.


(?Long discussion then the decision )

forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-6, 24‬ ‭


Circumcision was a sign of the old covenant peoples made through the flesh of Abraham

“And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Baptism is the new covenant token of the covenant between God and all people




“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The nt is really clear that circumcision isnt part of the new covenant but that baptism is an early part of the new covenant based on the eternal
Promises to Abraham and his seed Jesus Christ who we are baptized into

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Certainly true.

Now if you were to accept the baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as Jesus commanded, we would be on the same page!