What does this mean?
- Thread starter Robertt
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
if God already knew you, why would He have to "look" into the future before He created you?
does He know what He creates?
i think so. because there is never any such thing as a time when He does not know every thing. He made time, and knew it before He even made it - made it because it is what He meant to make.
does He know what He creates?
i think so. because there is never any such thing as a time when He does not know every thing. He made time, and knew it before He even made it - made it because it is what He meant to make.
-
1
- Show all
A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy ―
“God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”
-
1
- Show all
How does it depend Are you arguing regeneration/rebirth before one hears the Gospel? So you’re washed clean before admitting you’re unclean? Titus 3:5 before Romans 1:16?
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Are you arguing regeneration/rebirth before one hears the Gospel? So you’re washed clean before admitting you’re unclean? Titus 3:5 before Romans 1:16? Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
How does it depend Are you arguing regeneration/rebirth before one hears the Gospel? So you’re washed clean before admitting you’re unclean? Titus 3:5 before Romans 1:16?
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Are you arguing regeneration/rebirth before one hears the Gospel? So you’re washed clean before admitting you’re unclean? Titus 3:5 before Romans 1:16? Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
i gather you define 'a christian believer' as a person who has at least begun a process of rebirth, regeneration, and/or cleansing?
i think it's important to note that these are passive processes: God does them to a person ((re: John 1:12-13, John 3:5-7, Ephesians 2:4-5, James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:23, Ephesians 5:26, Hebrews 1:3, Titus 3:5, Acts 15:9 etc etc etc)).
insofar as answering Lanolin's question per the perspective you gave me, by definition such a 'christian believer' could not exist as such before the processes were begun - there's a time element implicit in your definition. in the same way you couldn't call an egg an omelet, because it hasn't been prepared and cooked yet. however - it is still an egg after it has been processed, after a manner of speaking: it's not made of different substance; the substance is only changed form. so did the omelet always exist? the Bible says Levi tithed to Melchizedek from within the loins of Abraham ((Hebrews 7:9-10)) - so maybe that answer isn't so obvious as it first appears.
what do you believe God foreknew, then?
the 'not-a christian-believer' that existed before He performed a work in them that, in that space of time in which He worked, brought about the existence of a 'christian believer' ?
did He foreknow the person that came into existence because of the work He performed on them?
which one did He choose?
the one He created, right? that's a trick question
if God already knew you, why would He have to "look" into the future before He created you?
does He know what He creates?
i think so. because there is never any such thing as a time when He does not know every thing. He made time, and knew it before He even made it - made it because it is what He meant to make.
does He know what He creates?
i think so. because there is never any such thing as a time when He does not know every thing. He made time, and knew it before He even made it - made it because it is what He meant to make.
How does it depend Are you arguing regeneration/rebirth before one hears the Gospel? So you’re washed clean before admitting you’re unclean? Titus 3:5 before Romans 1:16?
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Are you arguing regeneration/rebirth before one hears the Gospel? So you’re washed clean before admitting you’re unclean? Titus 3:5 before Romans 1:16? Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Remember God is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul desires. For he performs that which is appointed to us as he does work in us yoked with him to both will and do his good pleasure. .
He makes out heart hearts soft creating it a new . And brings to our minds the things he previously has taught us. According to Job 23 and Philippian 2:12
Foreknowledge does not equal preordination. God does not predestine certain people for salvation and others for condemnation.
That is a lie created by Satan in 412CE whispered to Augustine who based this off pagan gods and influences (Stoic, Neoplatonic, and Manichaean) of which he had been deeply rooted in, and eventually went back to. He was a Manichaean for a decade ("In this pagan group, a non-relational God unilaterally chose the elect for salvation and the non-elect for damnation based upon his own desires. Early church fathers prior to Augustine refuted non-choice predeterminism as being pagan"). Research it yourself; read his writings. Previously after converting Augustine taught traditional free-will then went back to pagan ideas. Calvin based TULIP on, and adored Augustine; Arminius based some of his points from Calvin. The Eastern Orthodox Church rightfully never accepted Augustine’s doctrines.
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
I posted this before but reposting:
That is a lie created by Satan in 412CE whispered to Augustine who based this off pagan gods and influences (Stoic, Neoplatonic, and Manichaean) of which he had been deeply rooted in, and eventually went back to. He was a Manichaean for a decade ("In this pagan group, a non-relational God unilaterally chose the elect for salvation and the non-elect for damnation based upon his own desires. Early church fathers prior to Augustine refuted non-choice predeterminism as being pagan"). Research it yourself; read his writings. Previously after converting Augustine taught traditional free-will then went back to pagan ideas. Calvin based TULIP on, and adored Augustine; Arminius based some of his points from Calvin. The Eastern Orthodox Church rightfully never accepted Augustine’s doctrines.
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
I posted this before but reposting:
Matthew 22:1-14 has 3 distinct choices the King makes:
1) Choice of His Servants from His own country, given a task of sending the invites
2) Choice to send the invites first to His own country and then all others
3) Choice to allow only those properly dressed
1) Israel for which the Law, His word, and Servants would be sent (Rom 3:1-3, 9:4-5). Not because they did anything (Deut. 7:7, Rom 9:11)
2) Israel and Gentiles, all “bad as well as the good” - not about individual being chosen to salvation.
3) Those clothed in righteousness of Christ through faith. The choice is anything but unconditional.
“Few” and “chosen” are those who responded freely to the invitation through his unconditional chosen servants from his unconditional chosen nation.
Verses like John 15:16 or Paul’s encounter are linked with #1 in the parable not with #3.
#1, #2 and #3 are separate.
Choice #2 shows that its sent to all, not ‘some individuals but not others’
Faith comes from hearing (Romans 10:17)
Which verse do you get that from?
If, by chance, you're thinking of Rev13:8, that verse should actually read:
-- "slain FROM [G575 - apo] the foundation of the world" [isv, ylt, kjv, etc]
NOT "written BEFORE [G4253 - pro] the foundation of the world" [esv, cev, gnt]
See the difference? These two are conveying completely different ideas.
If, by chance, you're thinking of Rev13:8, that verse should actually read:
-- "slain FROM [G575 - apo] the foundation of the world" [isv, ylt, kjv, etc]
NOT "written BEFORE [G4253 - pro] the foundation of the world" [esv, cev, gnt]
See the difference? These two are conveying completely different ideas.
hearing by the Word of God. who hears if no one preaches? who preaches if no one is sent? and who is it that sends?
the One who speaks that Word: God. so that He is the Origin, the Author of salvation, and there is no one who can boast, as He is also the Finisher and Destination of our faith.
btw speaking of Origen --
'fatalism' is not the same thing as predestination.
that would be sheep 'free-will-deciding' not to obey their Shepherd, which, no one of sound doctrine has ever advised the sheep to do. that is the life we are saved from: the death that results from man's natural choices. but it isn't quite true ((no matter how many websites you find that say so)) that no one before Augustine ever read the word 'predestined' or 'election' in the scripture. language like this is literally written dozens of time in the NT, but 'free will' is much harder to find, and is instead argued circumspectly by implication. which isn't to say that it isn't there - it certainly is; even as early as Genesis 2:16 (('ye may freely eat')) - but the notion that God doesn't have mercy on whom He will, and harden whom He will? you're reading a different book. Moses is more ancient than any Stoic.
the One who speaks that Word: God. so that He is the Origin, the Author of salvation, and there is no one who can boast, as He is also the Finisher and Destination of our faith.
btw speaking of Origen --
“Ye have already learned above (in Lecture XLV.) who the sheep are: be ye sheep. They are sheep through believing, sheep in following the Shepherd, sheep in not despising their Redeemer, sheep in entering by the door, sheep in going out and finding pasture, sheep in the enjoyment of eternal life. What did He mean, then, in saying to them, “Ye are not of my sheep”? That He saw them predestined to everlasting destruction, not won to eternal life by the price of His own blood,” (Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John. Tractates XLV to XLIX, Chapter 10.22-42, par. 4).
'fatalism' is not the same thing as predestination.
that would be sheep 'free-will-deciding' not to obey their Shepherd, which, no one of sound doctrine has ever advised the sheep to do. that is the life we are saved from: the death that results from man's natural choices. but it isn't quite true ((no matter how many websites you find that say so)) that no one before Augustine ever read the word 'predestined' or 'election' in the scripture. language like this is literally written dozens of time in the NT, but 'free will' is much harder to find, and is instead argued circumspectly by implication. which isn't to say that it isn't there - it certainly is; even as early as Genesis 2:16 (('ye may freely eat')) - but the notion that God doesn't have mercy on whom He will, and harden whom He will? you're reading a different book. Moses is more ancient than any Stoic.
-
1
- Show all
Many have said this, except some have found they now believe and once they did not.
Belief in Jesus is in part knowing what He is saying and what He meant for us to do.
The more I see Jesus the more amazed I am at how infinite His revelation and truth is.
Most of my life I have listened to Him, and still His words are life and reality day in day out.
And it is because we change and are changed by what we sow and listen to, and we become something
which we are not aware of, by these very actions.
God bless you
Belief in Jesus is in part knowing what He is saying and what He meant for us to do.
The more I see Jesus the more amazed I am at how infinite His revelation and truth is.
Most of my life I have listened to Him, and still His words are life and reality day in day out.
And it is because we change and are changed by what we sow and listen to, and we become something
which we are not aware of, by these very actions.
God bless you
I have never stated that men did not have free will and that they had no freedom to either accept or reject The Will of God..
My stance is the God foreknew what decision each and every individual that would ever exist would make.. Thus He ordained those who He already knew would embrace his will,, to be conformed to the image of the LORD Jesus Christ..
Also i don't care for quotes and appeals to man authorities.. A.W Tozer was no Apostle of the LORD.. What He has to say is of no more weight then anyone else who posts in this forum..
My stance is the God foreknew what decision each and every individual that would ever exist would make.. Thus He ordained those who He already knew would embrace his will,, to be conformed to the image of the LORD Jesus Christ..
Also i don't care for quotes and appeals to man authorities.. A.W Tozer was no Apostle of the LORD.. What He has to say is of no more weight then anyone else who posts in this forum..
Those two are different I would agree.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world
The words; in the book of life of the Lamb slain from were removed and replaced with BEFORE. That can make a difference.
Two sets of books .One book with every name God intended to create.(mankind) And the other the lambs book of spirit life as those who did receive new born again spirit.
When the two books are compared. Those who names are not found in the Lamb's book of new spirt life. . . they will be blotted out of the other book of all he would create. Then the two books will be in agreement . One new creation. Then in our new incorruptible bodies. . . our weeping will be turned to joy …..the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind.
Revelation 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Psalm 69:28 (KJV) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and "not be written with the righteous".
In respect to above ; not be written with the righteous. It would be not written in the Lambs book of life. They must be in agreement as two witnesses . .
Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world
The words; in the book of life of the Lamb slain from were removed and replaced with BEFORE. That can make a difference.
Two sets of books .One book with every name God intended to create.(mankind) And the other the lambs book of spirit life as those who did receive new born again spirit.
When the two books are compared. Those who names are not found in the Lamb's book of new spirt life. . . they will be blotted out of the other book of all he would create. Then the two books will be in agreement . One new creation. Then in our new incorruptible bodies. . . our weeping will be turned to joy …..the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind.
Revelation 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Psalm 69:28 (KJV) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and "not be written with the righteous".
In respect to above ; not be written with the righteous. It would be not written in the Lambs book of life. They must be in agreement as two witnesses . .
Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
There is no verse saying "WHEN" a person's name is "written in" the Lamb's book of life (as in [what you were saying], "BEFORE" or even "FROM" the foundation of the world).
As for Psalm 69:28, I believe the two phrases do refer to two distinct books (but again, nothing here is saying the "WHEN" of the SECOND PART [anything regarding the "written WITH the righteous" part] happening BEFORE/or FROM the foundation of the world--in fact, the "LET" word seems to prohibit such an idea [applying, as it seems to, to both phrases])
As for Psalm 69:28, I believe the two phrases do refer to two distinct books (but again, nothing here is saying the "WHEN" of the SECOND PART [anything regarding the "written WITH the righteous" part] happening BEFORE/or FROM the foundation of the world--in fact, the "LET" word seems to prohibit such an idea [applying, as it seems to, to both phrases])
