What does that simple question reveal?

[Wansvic]

The kjv says "since you believed" and the Greek in the interlinear says "having believed" which in both cases is a different connotation than "when you believed" which implies it happens or happened immediately and upon belief only which it didn't. Note that in verse 6 of 19, even after they were baptized in the Lord's name,the Holy Ghost still didn't fall on them immediately, but it required the laying on of Paul's hands, an apostle, to impart the manifestation of the Spirit. Upon their baptism however, they would have received the gift of the Holy Ghost consistent with Acts 2:38, but not the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit, a gift or gifts of the Spirit, but just it's indwelling.

I am curious. How you come to the conclusion that hands must be laid upon a person in order to "activate" the flow of spiritual gifts? That thought process necessitates the idea that the Holy Ghost does not have the ability to cause the manifestation of His own accord. And since 1 Cor. 12, mainly verses 7 and 11 indicate that spiritual gifts are distributed by the Holy Ghost how does one come to conclude, as you do, that the laying on of hands is necessary?

 

[DJT_47]

I am curious. How you come to the conclusion that hands must be laid upon a person in order to "activate" the flow of spiritual gifts? That thought process necessitates the idea that the Holy Ghost does not have the ability to cause the manifestation of His own accord. And since 1 Cor. 12, mainly verses 7 and 11 indicate that spiritual gifts are distributed by the Holy Ghost how does one come to conclude, as you do, that the laying on of hands is necessary?

I've posted the scriptural justification for that conclusion previously but will repost the scriptures again. It's not my opinion but simply looking at the scriptures and what they say to which there are no other scriptures that say or suggest otherwise.

REPOST

Stephen was already a baptized believer, so according to Acts 2:38, he had already received the gift not gifts, which are the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit. It wasn't until they (the apostles) laid their hands on him, verse 6, that he was able to do the wonders as noted in verse 8

"5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: 6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people."

Also to corroborate the fact that it was the laying on of the apostle's hands that enabled the gifts (manifestations of the Spirit, those listed in 1Cor 12:8-10), see the below scriptures.

Acts 5:12

12And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

Acts 8:14-17

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:18-19

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:6

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

2 Tim 1:6-7

6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Pretty clear when you look at ALL the pertinent scriptures, the MANIFISTATION of the Spirit, which Spirit was within the baptized believers in biblical times per Acts 2:38, was the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands.

 

[Wansvic]

So you believe the Holy Spirit comes upon and in a person who is not saved? Even when Jesus said Believe and be saved?

Ok.

Thank you for your input and clarification.

No one is saved without being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (Rom. 8:9) And no one is saved without having their sins remitted. Jesus said that none can SEE or ENTER the kingdom of God unless born of water and Spirit. (John 3:3-5) I realize many don't accept that Jesus meant water baptism. And that is surprising since all detailed accounts relative to every group/individual of humanity involve both water and Spirit. All were indwelt by the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and instructed to submit to water baptism in the name of Jesus.

 

[Wansvic]

I've posted the scriptural justification for that conclusion previously but will repost the scriptures again. It's not my opinion but simply looking at the scriptures and what they say to which there are no other scriptures that say or suggest otherwise.

REPOST

Stephen was already a baptized believer, so according to Acts 2:38, he had already received the gift not gifts, which are the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit. It wasn't until they (the apostles) laid their hands on him, verse 6, that he was able to do the wonders as noted in verse 8

"5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: 6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people."

Also to corroborate the fact that it was the laying on of the apostle's hands that enabled the gifts (manifestations of the Spirit, those listed in 1Cor 12:8-10), see the below scriptures.

Acts 5:12

12And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

Acts 8:14-17

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:18-19

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:6

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

2 Tim 1:6-7

6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Pretty clear when you look at ALL the pertinent scriptures, the MANIFISTATION of the Spirit, which Spirit was within the baptized believers in biblical times per Acts 2:38, was the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands.

1 Cor. 12 indicates that spiritual gifts are distributed directly by the Spirit. Not through the hands of man.


In the Acts 6 account the laying on of hands by the apostles was not to impart spiritual gifts. There is nothing in the account to suggest otherwise. The laying on of hands designated the commissioning of Stephen and 6 other men to the position relative to the needs of widows.


There Acts 5:12 has its parallel in Acts 19:11: it states that God brought about special miracles by the hands of Paul. People were being healed, etc. The miracles were brought about by the Holy Ghost dwelling inside of Paul. Paul was not giving those he touched the ability to heal, speak a word of knowledge, etc.

All of the following show the people were receiving the actual Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands:

"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." Acts 8:14-17

"And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost." Acts 8:18-19

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:6




In 2 Tim 1:6-7 Paul references the gift of God. The gift is the Holy Spirit as revealed in Acts 2:38. According to Paul stirring up the Holy Spirit involves speaking to ourselves in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, etc. (Eph 5:18-19)

"Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

 

[DJT_47]

1 Cor. 12 indicates that spiritual gifts are distributed directly by the Spirit. Not through the hands of man.


In the Acts 6 account the laying on of hands by the apostles was not to impart spiritual gifts. There is nothing in the account to suggest otherwise. The laying on of hands designated the commissioning of Stephen and 6 other men to the position relative to the needs of widows.


There Acts 5:12 has its parallel in Acts 19:11: it states that God brought about special miracles by the hands of Paul. People were being healed, etc. The miracles were brought about by the Holy Ghost dwelling inside of Paul. Paul was not giving those he touched the ability to heal, speak a word of knowledge, etc.

All of the following show the people were receiving the actual Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands:

"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." Acts 8:14-17

"And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost." Acts 8:18-19

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:6




In 2 Tim 1:6-7 Paul references the gift of God. The gift is the Holy Spirit as revealed in Acts 2:38. According to Paul stirring up the Holy Spirit involves speaking to ourselves in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, etc. (Eph 5:18-19)

"Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

In Acts 6, why did the apostles lay their hands on them? Wasn't prayer sufficient to "commission" those chosen? The laying on of the apostle's hands was for a reason, and it wasn't "commissioning" which is not mentioned and your reasoning.

Acts 5:12 is included simply to show that it was the apostles that had the power from on high as noted in Acts 2 and promised to THEM by the Lord in Luke 24:49. If they only had such power bestowed on them suchad demonstrated on the day of Pentecost, it was only by them that it was transmitted. So, how could someone else have such power unless it was transmitted by tge apostles and so done by the laying on of their hands?

And by your next statement, you've confirmed the point that I've (actually the scriptures) made, namely, that it was by tge laying on of hands. Your statement below.

"All of the following show the people were receiving the actual Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands:"

So, what is your point? The indwelling oh the Spirit is per Acts 2:38, but the manifestation of the Spirit that's indwelt is via the laying on of the apostle's hands.

And let me remind you of 1 Cor 13:8 which clearly states that the gifts would cease; when? "When that which is perfect is come". And when is or was that: Scripturally, what does that mean? I know but do you?

 

[George71]

In Acts 6, why did the apostles lay their hands on them? Wasn't prayer sufficient to "commission" those chosen? The laying on of the apostle's hands was for a reason, and it wasn't "commissioning" which is not mentioned and your reasoning.

Acts 5:12 is included simply to show that it was the apostles that had the power from on high as noted in Acts 2 and promised to THEM by the Lord in Luke 24:49. If they only had such power bestowed on them suchad demonstrated on the day of Pentecost, it was only by them that it was transmitted. So, how could someone else have such power unless it was transmitted by tge apostles and so done by the laying on of their hands?

And by your next statement, you've confirmed the point that I've (actually the scriptures) made, namely, that it was by tge laying on of hands. Your statement below.

"All of the following show the people were receiving the actual Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands:"

So, what is your point? The indwelling oh the Spirit is per Acts 2:38, but the manifestation of the Spirit that's indwelt is via the laying on of the apostle's hands.

And let me remind you of 1 Cor 13:8 which clearly states that the gifts would cease; when? "When that which is perfect is come". And when is or was that: Scripturally, what does that mean? I know but do you?

I don't think that the perfect has come because: "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known" (1 Corinthians 13:12. I thank God for the Bible but face to face is not descriptive of a person reading the Bible it is describing 2 people facing each other. And we know that one day we will be face to face with Him.

 

[DJT_47]

I don't think that the perfect has come because: "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known" (1 Corinthians 13:12. I thank God for the face to face is not descriptive of a person reading the Bible it is describing 2 people facing each other. And we know that one day we will be face to face with Him.

Let me ask you as I've recently asked another person recently who pointed me to a scripture that many adhere to which makes no sense.. What exactly is "that which is perfect"??

 

[CS1]

No one is saved without being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (Rom. 8:9) And no one is saved without having their sins remitted. Jesus said that none can SEE or ENTER the kingdom of God unless born of water and Spirit. (John 3:3-5) I realize many don't accept that Jesus meant water baptism. And that is surprising since all detailed accounts relative to every group/individual of humanity involve both water and Spirit. All were indwelt by the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and instructed to submit to water baptism in the name of Jesus.

JUst so you know, BAPTISM IN WATER IS DEATH. THE Water represents the grave.

Jesus never said Be Baptized to be saved. He Said Beleive and be saved.

 

[DJT_47]

JUst so you know, BAPTISM IN WATER IS DEATH. THE Water represents the grave.

Jesus never said Be Baptized to be saved. He Said Beleive and be saved.

Actually, Jesus did


Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

belief + baptism = salvation

 

[Wansvic]

In Acts 6, why did the apostles lay their hands on them? Wasn't prayer sufficient to "commission" those chosen? The laying on of the apostle's hands was for a reason, and it wasn't "commissioning" which is not mentioned and your reasoning.

Acts 5:12 is included simply to show that it was the apostles that had the power from on high as noted in Acts 2 and promised to THEM by the Lord in Luke 24:49. If they only had such power bestowed on them suchad demonstrated on the day of Pentecost, it was only by them that it was transmitted. So, how could someone else have such power unless it was transmitted by tge apostles and so done by the laying on of their hands?

And by your next statement, you've confirmed the point that I've (actually the scriptures) made, namely, that it was by tge laying on of hands. Your statement below.

"All of the following show the people were receiving the actual Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands:"

So, what is your point? The indwelling oh the Spirit is per Acts 2:38, but the manifestation of the Spirit that's indwelt is via the laying on of the apostle's hands.

And let me remind you of 1 Cor 13:8 which clearly states that the gifts would cease; when? "When that which is perfect is come". And when is or was that: Scripturally, what does that mean? I know but do you?

My point is the scriptures make a direct reference to the laying on of hands being associated with the Holy Ghost coming to dwell within the bodies of the individuals. What occurred afterward confirmed the reality He was indeed inside of the person. The idea that the scriptures indicate a need to activate spiritual gifts is not supported.


As for Acts 6, notice in verse 3 the apostles instructed the other disciples to pick 7 men that were full of the Holy Ghost AND wisdom. Wisdom is a spiritual gift. (1 Cor. 12:8) This refutes the idea that hands were laid upon the individuals in order to activate spiritual gifts. Also, verse 3 specifically mentions the apostles intended to appoint individuals recommended by other disciples.

Acts 6:1 "And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, WHOM WE may appoint over this business.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them." Acts 6:1, 3, 5-6


1 Cor. 13:8 is not a reference to spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are initiated by the Holy Ghost for edification of the body of Christ, and as a means of proving to unbelievers the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gifts will no longer be necessary and cease to exist when Jesus returns.
Acts 2:38 reveals that those who repent and submit to water baptism in the name of Jesus SHALL receive the Holy Ghost. It is a promiseIt does not specify that receiving the Holy Ghost will happen at the very moment of water baptism. The accounts in scripture confirm
Scripture reveals the Holy Ghost was given at times through the laying on of hands. However, that was not always the case. What is consistent is there was evidence that the indwelling took place. All but one record specifically reveals the evidence was speaking in tongues.
Since the scriptures state that individual's are actually receiving the Holy Ghost that eliminates the need to apply another purpose for the event.

 

[DJT_47]

My point is the scriptures make a direct reference to the laying on of hands being associated with the Holy Ghost coming to dwell within the bodies of the individuals. What occurred afterward confirmed the reality He was indeed inside of the person. The idea that the scriptures indicate a need to activate spiritual gifts is not supported.


As for Acts 6, notice in verse 3 the apostles instructed the other disciples to pick 7 men that were full of the Holy Ghost AND wisdom. Wisdom is a spiritual gift. (1 Cor. 12:8) This refutes the idea that hands were laid upon the individuals in order to activate spiritual gifts. Also, verse 3 specifically mentions the apostles intended to appoint individuals recommended by other disciples.

Acts 6:1 "And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, WHOM WE may appoint over this business.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them." Acts 6:1, 3, 5-6


1 Cor. 13:8 is not a reference to spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are initiated by the Holy Ghost for edification of the body of Christ, and as a means of proving to unbelievers the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gifts will no longer be necessary and cease to exist when Jesus returns.
Acts 2:38 reveals that those who repent and submit to water baptism in the name of Jesus SHALL receive the Holy Ghost. It is a promiseIt does not specify that receiving the Holy Ghost will happen at the very moment of water baptism. The accounts in scripture confirm
Scripture reveals the Holy Ghost was given at times through the laying on of hands. However, that was not always the case. What is consistent is there was evidence that the indwelling took place. All but one record specifically reveals the evidence was speaking in tongues.
Since the scriptures state that individual's are actually receiving the Holy Ghost that eliminates the need to apply another purpose for the event.

You got it wrong. The Spirit comes to dwell in a person without the laying on of the apostle's hands according to Acts 2:38, upon baptism; we all ger the gift of the Spirit itself, but not gifts. So it's not as you've indicated but the laying on of the apostle's hands were in fact associated with the Holy Ghost but rather to make the Spirit be manifested, the so-called gifts being manifested. Isn't this also confirmed by 2 Tim 1:6? The interlinear says "kindle anew the gift if God which is in you", and the kjv reads "stir up the gift of God which is in thee".

And once again, why did the apostles lay their hands on the 7 chosen including Steven in Acts 6? To give them the power to do miracles, speak in tongues, etc,. Verse 8 goes on to say Stephen did great wonders and miracles afterwards.

And 1 Cor 13:8 is specifically about the ceasing of the gifts.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

And it goes on to say in verse 10

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

It doesn't say when Jesus returns. I ask you as I've asked others, what is "that which is perfect"? What does this mean? Is this what you think refers to Jesus?

 

[Wansvic]

You got it wrong. The Spirit comes to dwell in a person without the laying on of the apostle's hands according to Acts 2:38, upon baptism; we all ger the gift of the Spirit itself, but not gifts. So it's not as you've indicated but the laying on of the apostle's hands were in fact associated with the Holy Ghost but rather to make the Spirit be manifested, the so-called gifts being manifested. Isn't this also confirmed by 2 Tim 1:6? The interlinear says "kindle anew the gift if God which is in you", and the kjv reads "stir up the gift of God which is in thee".

And once again, why did the apostles lay their hands on the 7 chosen including Steven in Acts 6? To give them the power to do miracles, speak in tongues, etc,. Verse 8 goes on to say Stephen did great wonders and miracles afterwards.

And 1 Cor 13:8 is specifically about the ceasing of the gifts.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

And it goes on to say in verse 10

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

It doesn't say when Jesus returns. I ask you as I've asked others, what is "that which is perfect"? What does this mean? Is this what you think refers to Jesus?

Interestingly this response is in reference to my post that addresses your comments. You may want to read the post again and play close attention to the content of the scriptures presented.

At this point we do see scripture differently. But thanks for the discussion.

 

[DJT_47]

Interestingly this response is in reference to my post that addresses your comments. You may want to read the post again and play close attention to the content of the scriptures presented.

At this point we do see scripture differently. But thanks for the discussion.

I see scripture as it's written and without pre-determined bias. Goodbye.

 

[Wansvic]

JUst so you know, BAPTISM IN WATER IS DEATH. THE Water represents the grave.

Jesus never said Be Baptized to be saved. He Said Beleive and be saved.

According to the Apostle Paul it is those who have been baptized into Jesus Christ that were indeed baptized into Jesus' death? Notice: We are buried with him by baptism into death. Paul goes on to specify "FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, WE SHALL be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom. 6:3-6)

The aforementioned scripture in Romans speaks to the reality that obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus remits (destroys) an individual's sin. This is a direct parallel to Acts 2:38: "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of the Jesus Christ for remission of sin AND you SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost that brings about the reality of one's future resurrection provided for by Jesus' sacrifice. These truths parallel Jesus' words in John 3:3-5 as well.

 

[Cameron143]

According to the Apostle Paul it is those who have been baptized into Jesus Christ that were indeed baptized into Jesus' death? Notice: We are buried with him by baptism into death. Paul goes on to specify "FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, WE SHALL be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom. 6:3-6)

The aforementioned scripture in Romans speaks to the reality that obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus remits (destroys) an individual's sin. This is a direct parallel to Acts 2:38: "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of the Jesus Christ for remission of sin AND you SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How does a physical activity produce a spiritual reality?

 

[Wansvic]

How does a physical activity produce a spiritual reality?

I don't have to understand it, God said it does. Therefore I chose to believe Him.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Have you received the Holy Ghost/Spirit SINCE you believed?

this is interesting because it clearly depicts our Free Will.
here, we have a person, who BELIEVES in GOD, but clearly, they have not received the Holy Spirit.

in fact, Jesus, even says we are to ASK for the Holy Spirit:

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him (Luke 11:13).

Absolutely all about the Free Will!

 

[Cameron143]

I don't have to understand it, God said it does. Therefore I chose to believe Him.

I'm not trying to trick you or in any way to denigrate you. And I agree that there are mysteries concerning God that are to be received by faith.
How about I try it this way: is there any spiritual activity going on in Acts 2:37?

 

[CS1]

According to the Apostle Paul it is those who have been baptized into Jesus Christ that were indeed baptized into Jesus' death? Notice: We are buried with him by baptism into death. Paul goes on to specify "FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, WE SHALL be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom. 6:3-6)

The aforementioned scripture in Romans speaks to the reality that obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus remits (destroys) an individual's sin. This is a direct parallel to Acts 2:38: "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of the Jesus Christ for remission of sin AND you SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost that brings about the reality of one's future resurrection provided for by Jesus' sacrifice. These truths parallel Jesus' words in John 3:3-5 as well.

Roman chapter 6 states

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?


4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,


Nothing of this says Baptism saves you. it is all symbolic, but we are to apply it as WE have been crucified with Christ, and we are to recon ourselves Derad to sin and Only be alive in Christ.

 

[George71]

Let me ask you as I've recently asked another person recently who pointed me to a scripture that many adhere to which makes no sense.. What exactly is "that which is perfect"??

The Ascended Christ