What does that simple question reveal?

[Wansvic]

You are trying to make an exception into a rule. More false doctrine from Wansvic. So once you cling to one false doctrine, it follows that you will add more and more to your repertoire.

So what happened on the day of Pentecost? Did the 3,000 Jews receive the gift of the Holy Spirit immediately or not? And if they did receive the gift on that day, then your contention has no merit. Pentecost was an extremely important day in 30 AD.

Your accusation is not true.

Paul revealed the truth that believing in Jesus does not automatically result in a person being indwelt with the Holy Ghost. His question revealed the distinction between the two experiences. "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? Not my words, His. This truth was well known long before Paul ever spoke those words to the Ephesians some 30 years after the initial message was given at Pentecost.

The record of the Day of Pentecost confirms Paul's point. Belief in Jesus did not automatically result in the individual's receiving the Holy Ghost. Peter informed those who already believed in Jesus that they would at a future point receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:36-39)

This truth is revealed yet again in the account of the Samaritans. (Acts 8)

 

[Wansvic]

i think he's saying you are correct that the Spirit indwells all who believe, but in a kind of response to Wansvic, making a point that this indwelling is not the same as "being filled with"

Please note that receiving the Holy Ghost is the experience of the Holy Ghost coming to dwell within an individual. See Paul's comment regarding this in Romans 8:9 below. And again, keep in mind that Paul asked, "Have you RECEIVED the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?"

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Rom 8:9

 

[Wansvic]

Is Paul conferring salvation to them or a spiritual gift?

1 Corinthians 12:30
Do all speak with tongues?

There is nothing in Paul's question that indicates he was addressing spiritual gifts. He specifically said, "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?"

 

[Wansvic]

The scripture doesn't call them "mistakenly supposed believers who really weren't believers"

The scripture calls them "believers"

i rather think the scripture is correct in doing so, even though they were ignorant at the time of Pentecost.

belief in Pentecost doesn't save us.
belief in the Lamb of God does - and being disciples of John, they believed in the Lamb of God.

Paul's question indicates he thought that the 12 already believed in Jesus and His sacrifice that brought about the reality of being able to receive the Holy Ghost. The 12 were John the Baptist's disciples as the account reveals. After hearing, believing, and obeying the command to be rebaptized in water in Jesus' name, Paul laid hands on them. It was at the point of Paul laying hands on the 12 that they received the Holy Ghost. Afterward the 12 could say yes to the question, Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF SO be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Rom 8:9

how does one actually receive this spirit of Christ ?

“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Paul asks them and they reply “we haven’t heard about the spirit “

“he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There is a word of promise in n this world called the gospel it promises that it f we hear and believe Jesus Christ word we will receive his holt spirit in our heart where we receive his word of life and faith

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The holy spirits words are in the gospel of we want to receive his spirit we have to accept the spirit of his word his teachings

for instance this is coming from the Holy Ghost it is God teaching anyone that believes in Jesus thier lord the truth that gives us salvation

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is the holy ghost own words meant to go into our heart believing “ this is the word of my lord and savior and I believe it’s true “

as we learn from our lord it has this effect

“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭

“and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To hear the gospel and believe the lord is what changes our minds that is the effectual working of his power within us who hear and believe his word

Im going to learn bout God the father like that he has is merciful to us and teaches us to be merciful to others , he teaches us to forgive like he forgives , to live upright lives as he did

to not judge and condemn others ect
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Everything a person needs to know about God was preached by his spirit in the gospel this is how we receive the spirit you have to hear the truth Jesus spoke about his spirit and accept it and believe

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There is nothing in Paul's question that indicates he was addressing spiritual gifts. He specifically said, "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?"

Amen And they replied “ we’ve never even heard bout the Holy Ghost “

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Paul's question indicates he thought that the 12 already believed in Jesus and His sacrifice that brought about the reality of being able to receive the Holy Ghost. The 12 were John the Baptist's disciples as the account reveals. After hearing, believing, and obeying the command to be rebaptized in water in Jesus' name, Paul laid hands on them. It was at the point of Paul laying hands on the 12 that they received the Holy Ghost. Afterward the 12 could say yes to the question, Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?

I don’t think they were re baptized in water brother they had already been baptized for remission the issue was only that they hadn’t actually heard what John was preaching regarding the holy spirit

they had been baptized in water for remission but hadn’t heard this part

“Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It was just that they hadn’t yet heard about the soirit they never heard John preaching this part and you can’t receive anything you have t heard about

“I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they hadnt heard about the holy ghost this was the only reason they hadn’t received it when th y heard the rest of the message they received the spirit I don’t think they were re baptized for repentance and remission it was only that receiving the spirit had been delayed because they hadn’t heard the truth nd without hearing it you can’t receive anything from God everything comes because we hear him and believe

baptism for repentance and remission comes with this promise that n Jesus name and by his word that promised us

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( water )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.( spirit )


For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A promise has to be heard for it to be believed and received they simply had never heard of receiving the spirit but had all been baptized like this

“And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But they didn’t stick around to hear the message that accompanies the doctrine of baptism of repentance and remission

 

[Wansvic]

Amen! Wansvic is absolutely obsessed with water baptism and it's also just about the only thing Wansvic talks about.

In regard to Acts 19:2, their answer to Paul's question, “we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” demonstrated that they did not yet believe on Christ Jesus unto salvation. Paul further asked, "into what then were you baptized? They said, “into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

When they heard this, they were afterwards baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. There would have been no need to re-baptize them if they had already believed on Christ Jesus unto salvation. These disciples of John needed further instructions to become believers on Christ Jesus then afterwards, they received the Holy Spirit after Paul laid hands on them (which is the exception, not the rule in every case of conversion, as in Acts 2 and Acts 10).

For the record, the topic concerns being indwelt with the Holy Ghost it has nothing to do with water baptism.

 

[jb]

Have you received the Holy Ghost/Spirit SINCE you believed?

For those interested, you can find a bit of a study Here on this subject...

 

[Wansvic]

I don’t think they were re baptized in water brother they had already been baptized for remission the issue was only that they hadn’t actually heard what John was preaching regarding the holy spirit

they had been baptized in water for remission but hadn’t heard this part ...

In Acts 10 Peter clarifies that being baptized in the name of Jesus is water baptism:

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:47-48

If you will recall those baptized by John submitted to it because they believed in the soon coming messiah. (Initially Jesus' identity as the messiah was not even known) Whereas, it is belief in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection that prompts repentance, AND obedience to the NT command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin.

Note that Jesus, Himself, said that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name to all nations BEGINNING in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) What Jesus said began, as He said it would, when Peter presented the initial message in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. It was then that Peter commanded everyone to repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin. Peter addresses receiving the Holy Ghost afterward.

Both baptism in the name of Jesus, meaning water, and the separate experience of receiving the Holy Ghost is once again referenced in the Samaritan account. They believed in the Apostle Philip's message and in the NAME of Jesus, and submitted to being baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 8:16) It wasn't until days later that the individuals received the Holy Ghost as well.

 

[DJT_47]

I don’t think they were re baptized in water brother they had already been baptized for remission the issue was only that they hadn’t actually heard what John was preaching regarding the holy spirit

they had been baptized in water for remission but hadn’t heard this part

“Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It was just that they hadn’t yet heard about the soirit they never heard John preaching this part and you can’t receive anything you have t heard about

“I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they hadnt heard about the holy ghost this was the only reason they hadn’t received it when th y heard the rest of the message they received the spirit I don’t think they were re baptized for repentance and remission it was only that receiving the spirit had been delayed because they hadn’t heard the truth nd without hearing it you can’t receive anything from God everything comes because we hear him and believe

baptism for repentance and remission comes with this promise that n Jesus name and by his word that promised us

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( water )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.( spirit )


For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A promise has to be heard for it to be believed and received they simply had never heard of receiving the spirit but had all been baptized like this

“And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But they didn’t stick around to hear the message that accompanies the doctrine of baptism of repentance and remission

The Ephesians hadn't been immersed "in the name of Jesus Christ," per Acts 2:38 (by his authority) nor "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, Mat 28:19 (by the authority of) and only unto John's baptism of repentance for the remission of sins but not in or by the authority of either of the aforementioned. This has two implications: if they were baptized only unto John's baptism, that baptism would have to be repeated over-and-over again to remove sin upon committing new sins, whereas being baptized into Christ, the baptism is a one-time event and Jesus blood continues to cleanse with new sin only requiring repentance. Secondly, if they were only baptized unto John's baptism, they did not receive the gift of he Holy Ghost which is received upon being baptized into Christ per Acts 2:38.

No one could have been baptized into Christ while he was still alive, hence the need for re-baptism of the Ephesians, as well as to secure the enduring aforementioned benefits of being baptized into Christ as opposed to simply John's baptism.

 

[CS1]

Have you received the Holy Ghost/Spirit SINCE you believed?

Yes

 

[Niki7]

This question was limited to a very specific situation. It is not for general application. So we need to keep the context in mind.

Well that is what you think but not what scripture states.

Praise God that He has not changed, His word is still truth no matter how many come along and try to say otherwise.

Those who have received what is called 'the Baptism of the Holy Spirit' would not change that for any amount of men's so called wisdom.

 

[Niki7]

Have you received the Holy Ghost/Spirit SINCE you believed?

yes and thank God!

 

[Niki7]

So you are saying the Spirit does NOT indwell a believer after repentance, belief, and receiving the Spirit?

Boy the last thing on this planet I need is to get embroiled in another one of these debates over whether or not we still receive a second infilling after we are first saved.

Anyway, this is found in scripture, Ephesians 1:13, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit but the actual thing people are talking about here is a 2nd occurence.

KJ21
In Christ ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in Whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I think I pretty much know by now that it is just about useless to go over and over and over this particular subject and I'm responding to your post because those in Christ are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit...but those who are cessationists do not get the whole benefit of what God offers.

That's all.

 

[Niki7]

So are you meaning if someone like Paul doesn't physically touch a person(lay his hands on them) then they haven't really received the HS?

But is that really what she is saying? or are folks assuming....cause that is not what she is saying. Paul has gone to his reward and thos of us typing madly away here, are not yet passed on.

 

[Niki7]

Is Paul conferring salvation to them or a spiritual gift?

1 Corinthians 12:30
Do all speak with tongues?

But it's not just about tongues then. The op is not about tongues so maybe good not to dwell on that.

There are other gifts of the Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

For the record, the topic concerns being indwelt with the Holy Ghost it has nothing to do with water baptism.

LOL! In your very next post you mention water baptism and stress its for the purpose of receiving remission of sins. I knew it was just a matter of time.

In Acts 10 Peter clarifies that being baptized in the name of Jesus is water baptism:

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:47-48

If you will recall those baptized by John submitted to it because they believed in the soon coming messiah. (Initially Jesus' identity as the messiah was not even known) Whereas, it is belief in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection that prompts repentance, AND obedience to the NT command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin.

Note that Jesus, Himself, said that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name to all nations BEGINNING in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) What Jesus said began, as He said it would, when Peter presented the initial message in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. It was then that Peter commanded everyone to repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin. Peter addresses receiving the Holy Ghost afterward.

Both baptism in the name of Jesus, meaning water, and the separate experience of receiving the Holy Ghost is once again referenced in the Samaritan account. They believed in the Apostle Philip's message and in the NAME of Jesus, and submitted to being baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 8:16) It wasn't until days later that the individuals received the Holy Ghost as well.

 

[Niki7]

LOL! In your very next post you mention water baptism and stress its for the purpose of receiving remission of sins. I knew it was just a matter of time.

I didn't read that...very pressed for time at the moment...but it's too bad that Wansvic believes that because it is not true...even as you say.

However, the actual op title remains.

 

[CS1]

I find it interesting that most quote Paul's writings over what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit in John's Gospel.

I think I saw Person quote John 1:29

I think Verse 33 is the foundational verse concerning the Baptism in the Holy Spirit Because Jesus is the one who Baptizes the believer in the Holy Spirit.

33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Now Jesus taught on what the Holy S[irit will do for the Believer starting in chapter 14 of John's Gospel.

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.


16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper,(like the same kind) that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

1. give you another Helper
2. He will be with you forever
3. The world cannot receive him
4. You Know HIM
5. He dwells WITH you and WILL be IN YOU In you and come upon you


The Holy Spirit comes in you to receive the Spirit of Truth for salvation, then you receive the empowerment of the Holy Spirit when HE comes upon you to be a witness, as Jesus said in Acts 1:8
and
John chapter 15:26, Jesus says:

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27, And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Then in chapter 16:


5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away;

for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.



12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.



The Holy Spirit comes into you. Once you are saved and believe in the Lord Jesus, The Holy Spirit brings Jesus to the unbeliever so they can Believe. Then He leads them and guides them in to all Truth. The Holy Spirit comes into you and then comes along side as a HELPER, IN you and with you along side.