What did Christ mean by John 3:17?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#1
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.(John 3:17 KJB)

First of all what does that word "condemn" mean? The lexicons and Vine never come right out and say it means "damnation". Thayer comes close but you would not know that this means damnation. "... contextually, used specifically of the act of condemning and decreeing (or inflicting) a penalty on one: John 3:18; John 5:22; John 12:47; Acts 7:7; Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 11:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:12; Hebrews 10:30; Hebrews 13:4; 1 Peter 4:6 ". Since he mentions 2 Thess 2:12, here is what that verse says in the KJB: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Is this the damnation of eternal Hell? Of course it is and there are dozens of verses to support that.

Christ did not come into the world to pronounce damnation, since it is already revealed to us in the OT and NT. The focus of that verse takes us back to verse 16, which reflects the truths that (1) Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners and (2) He came to seek and to save that which was lost. To then claim that this verse also means that Christians are to be merely passive spectators while the world goes to Hell, is to distort the truth.

The pollution of the temple in Jerusalem while Christ was on earth is a good analogy to the corruption of Christendom today. The Bible says in Psalm 69 how Christ felt about this: "For the zeal of thine house has eaten me up". So what did He do (already knowing that the evildoers were under condemnation)?

And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (John 2:13-17)

Did Christ stand by passively or did he take drastic action (which would be shocking today if Jesus entered into a church and did just that)? And is He an example to all believers? When the churches and denominations are being corrupted, and tele-evangelists are making merchandise of the Gospel, what should Christians do? When churches are encouraging sexual perversion, are we to simply stand by?

Now when we come to the world which is already under condemnation, what did Christ do?

MATTHEW 23;14-33: THE DAMNATION OF HELL PRONOUNCED BY CHRIST
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


That is extremely strong language, and these men were already under condemnation. Therefore Christians are exhorted to reprove and rebuke the works of darkness and have no fellowship with them (Eph 5:11). And Timothy was commanded by Paul to reprove and rebuke within the church when there was sin and evil and false doctrine. Christ told almost all the seven churches in Revelation to repent, and today all of Christendom must be told to repent.

Christ also pronounced woes on the cities of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum for their unbelief (Mt 11:21; Lk 10:13). And would He not pronounce woes on the cities of America right now? In view of all this, no one has the right to promote false ideas about what Christians should do or not do. The Word of God is there to teach us.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,661
5,908
113
#2
“In view of all this, no one has the right to promote false ideas about what Christians should do or not do. The Word of God is there to teach us.”

amen .
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
3,636
113
#3
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.(John 3:17 KJB)

I love how God’s Mercy triumphs over His Judgment. God greatly desires to save us from our sins and clean us up… what a wonderful Papa God! :love:

However, there is only one way to be saved and receive God’s Mercy and that is the Blood and Body Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ….. NOTHING ELSE is acceptable to God.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,661
5,908
113
#4
I love how God’s Mercy triumphs over His Judgment. God greatly desires to save us from our sins and clean us up… what a wonderful Papa God! :love:

However, there is only one way to be saved and receive God’s Mercy and that is the Blood and Body Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ….. NOTHING ELSE is acceptable to God.
when you say this

“I love how God’s Mercy triumphs over His Judgment. God greatly desires to save us from our sins and clean us up… what a wonderful Papa God! ”

“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s referring to this law of freedom

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven……with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”

speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy;

Jesus shedding his blood is why he can give us this law of mercy for the merciful . Which means our judgement will be merciful wheras if we refuse to be merciful to others then we also can expect this judgement without mercy for our deeds

because all of us have sinned Jesus came to give us a word that we can live by

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a law governed not by sinlessness but they are all already a sinners we are or we’re all sinners . So in order to save those already guilty of sin you can’t have a death sentance for each sin like the law . You have to govern sinners with a law created from Mercy and grace.

Mercy has triumphed over judgement but we have to receive it as he’s given he said to hear and believe him and we would be saved and it’s also true that he shed his blood those two things go together the word spoken by God and then the bloodshed makes the covenant the word spoken to the people and blood shed for the people who accept the covenant word
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
3,636
113
#5
when you say this

“I love how God’s Mercy triumphs over His Judgment. God greatly desires to save us from our sins and clean us up… what a wonderful Papa God! ”

“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s referring to this law of freedom

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven……with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”

speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy;

Jesus shedding his blood is why he can give us this law of mercy for the merciful . Which means our judgement will be merciful wheras if we refuse to be merciful to others then we also can expect this judgement without mercy for our deeds

because all of us have sinned Jesus came to give us a word that we can live by

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a law governed not by sinlessness but they are all already a sinners we are or we’re all sinners . So in order to save those already guilty of sin you can’t have a death sentance for each sin like the law . You have to govern sinners with a law created from Mercy and grace.

Mercy has triumphed over judgement but we have to receive it as he’s given he said to hear and believe him and we would be saved and it’s also true that he shed his blood those two things go together the word spoken by God and then the bloodshed makes the covenant the word spoken to the people and blood shed for the people who accept the covenant word
We have to be very careful to NOT be in our flesh and make the same judgements that the brother made towards his brother and father when the prodigal son came home in humility and received His Father’s Mercy and Restoration to Sonhood….:unsure::love:

It’s life changing to read God’s Word through His eyes of Love. :love:
 
Apr 7, 2024
101
43
28
66
#6
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.(John 3:17 KJB)

First of all what does that word "condemn" mean? The lexicons and Vine never come right out and say it means "damnation". Thayer comes close but you would not know that this means damnation. "... contextually, used specifically of the act of condemning and decreeing (or inflicting) a penalty on one: John 3:18; John 5:22; John 12:47; Acts 7:7; Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 11:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:12; Hebrews 10:30; Hebrews 13:4; 1 Peter 4:6 ". Since he mentions 2 Thess 2:12, here is what that verse says in the KJB: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Is this the damnation of eternal Hell? Of course it is and there are dozens of verses to support that.

Christ did not come into the world to pronounce damnation, since it is already revealed to us in the OT and NT. The focus of that verse takes us back to verse 16, which reflects the truths that (1) Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners and (2) He came to seek and to save that which was lost. To then claim that this verse also means that Christians are to be merely passive spectators while the world goes to Hell, is to distort the truth.

The pollution of the temple in Jerusalem while Christ was on earth is a good analogy to the corruption of Christendom today. The Bible says in Psalm 69 how Christ felt about this: "For the zeal of thine house has eaten me up". So what did He do (already knowing that the evildoers were under condemnation)?

And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (John 2:13-17)

Did Christ stand by passively or did he take drastic action (which would be shocking today if Jesus entered into a church and did just that)? And is He an example to all believers? When the churches and denominations are being corrupted, and tele-evangelists are making merchandise of the Gospel, what should Christians do? When churches are encouraging sexual perversion, are we to simply stand by?

Now when we come to the world which is already under condemnation, what did Christ do?

MATTHEW 23;14-33: THE DAMNATION OF HELL PRONOUNCED BY CHRIST
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


That is extremely strong language, and these men were already under condemnation. Therefore Christians are exhorted to reprove and rebuke the works of darkness and have no fellowship with them (Eph 5:11). And Timothy was commanded by Paul to reprove and rebuke within the church when there was sin and evil and false doctrine. Christ told almost all the seven churches in Revelation to repent, and today all of Christendom must be told to repent.

Christ also pronounced woes on the cities of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum for their unbelief (Mt 11:21; Lk 10:13). And would He not pronounce woes on the cities of America right now? In view of all this, no one has the right to promote false ideas about what Christians should do or not do. The Word of God is there to teach us.
The Greek word "κρίνω" in John 3:17 means "to judge a person to be guilty and liable to punishment—‘to judge as guilty, to condemn, condemnation’" and conveys "the specific sense of adverse judgment or verdict of guilt" [Louw-Nida Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament]. So, John 3:17 is telling us that Jesus did not come to pass judgement on people. He came to save them.

Another verse contains three instances of the same word and is directed towards us: "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." (Ro 2:1) And it also contains a different word, "κατακρίνω", which means "to judge someone as definitely guilty and thus subject to punishment—‘to condemn, to render a verdict of guilt, condemnation’ [Louw-Nida Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament]. Romans 2:1 warns us that when we are judgemental towards others, we render a guilty verdict against ourselves and declare we are subject to punishment.

Jesus' judgement was righteous because He always did what pleased the Father. Ours is not because we practice the same things for which we may judge others.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#7
The Greek word "κρίνω" in John 3:17 means "to judge a person to be guilty and liable to punishment—‘to judge as guilty, to condemn, condemnation’" and conveys "the specific sense of adverse judgment or verdict of guilt" [Louw-Nida Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament].
That was my whole point. The lexicons need to go beyond dictionary meanings to spiritual truth. Eternal damnation is never mentioned by them, even though it is plainly taught in Scripture.

Jesus already knew the whole world in under divine judgment. The point of my post was also was to show -- from Scripture -- that He did not hesitate to condemn (very strongly) when needed. And contrary to what you claim, Christians can make righteous judgements. In fact we are told to do so.
 
Apr 7, 2024
101
43
28
66
#8
That was my whole point. The lexicons need to go beyond dictionary meanings to spiritual truth. Eternal damnation is never mentioned by them, even though it is plainly taught in Scripture.

Jesus already knew the whole world in under divine judgment. The point of my post was also was to show -- from Scripture -- that He did not hesitate to condemn (very strongly) when needed. And contrary to what you claim, Christians can make righteous judgements. In fact we are told to do so.
If it was a claim of mine, you might have a leg to stand on. But Romans 2:1 is very clear... "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." (Ro 2:1) Humility requires we consider our own weaknesses.

And there are other warnings against being judgemental...

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. (Mt 7:1–2)​

It is impossible for a person to escape the condemnation that he heaps upon another.
 
Apr 7, 2024
101
43
28
66
#9
The point of my post was also was to show -- from Scripture -- that He did not hesitate to condemn (very strongly) when needed. And contrary to what you claim, Christians can make righteous judgements. In fact we are told to do so.
It appears that the point of your post is to justify judgementalism as a virtuous Christian practice.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,803
631
113
#10
I love how God’s Mercy triumphs over His Judgment. God greatly desires to save us from our sins and clean us up… what a wonderful Papa God! :love:

However, there is only one way to be saved and receive God’s Mercy and that is the Blood and Body Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ….. NOTHING ELSE is acceptable to God.
Hey sis :) I truly believe no one knows how much He loves us. Every good thing that happens in this world is because of Him. OT just having a baby was because He did it. Two men out there looking for some horses or some animals (I forgot) but God told this prophet I believe that He was sending someone to him. Haha.. yeah that man God was sending got up one morning.. oh some of our Fathers animals got loose lets go find them. That was GOD leading them and it happened exactly like He said. Point is good things come from Him to all just and unjust. Satan can only steal kill and destroy.

We still only look at the appearance of someone and judge yet no matter what that "appearance" looks like our Father is seeing the heart 1st Samuel. Short.. He only showed me once in over 50+ years (63 age) walking with Him someone's heart. Oh man the way they were talking and acting.. so evil.. yet for one moment (makes me cry) I see the heart. What still blows me away is.. how can that heart be nothing at all like I was seeing yet it was. Yes the person was very close to me..see I have no right to see anyone's heart that is left to GOD alone. So yes I fully agree no flesh when it comes to judge....after seeing what He showed me just once and then the fact no one knows just how much He loves us. I REALLY like this huh.. praise GOD glory to Jesus
 
Aug 11, 2024
45
19
8
#11
I love how God’s Mercy triumphs over His Judgment. God greatly desires to save us from our sins and clean us up… what a wonderful Papa God! :love:

However, there is only one way to be saved and receive God’s Mercy and that is the Blood and Body Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ….. NOTHING ELSE is acceptable to God.
I wouldn't say that mercy trumps judgement. Because mercy can't rob justice. But there definitely is a perfect balance where through the atonement of Christ mercy is given while he pays the demands of justice. As we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, through the blood of Christ though our robes may be as scarlet they are washed clean through the blood of the lamb. (I know I'm blending verses but they tie together).
 
Aug 11, 2024
45
19
8
#12
when you say this

“I love how God’s Mercy triumphs over His Judgment. God greatly desires to save us from our sins and clean us up… what a wonderful Papa God! ”

“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s referring to this law of freedom

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven……with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”

speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy;

Jesus shedding his blood is why he can give us this law of mercy for the merciful . Which means our judgement will be merciful wheras if we refuse to be merciful to others then we also can expect this judgement without mercy for our deeds

because all of us have sinned Jesus came to give us a word that we can live by

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a law governed not by sinlessness but they are all already a sinners we are or we’re all sinners . So in order to save those already guilty of sin you can’t have a death sentance for each sin like the law . You have to govern sinners with a law created from Mercy and grace.

Mercy has triumphed over judgement but we have to receive it as he’s given he said to hear and believe him and we would be saved and it’s also true that he shed his blood those two things go together the word spoken by God and then the bloodshed makes the covenant the word spoken to the people and blood shed for the people who accept the covenant word
If caps and font size were to represent tone and volume. It seems as though a lot of this is screaming. Honey will attract more than vinegar. Remember everyone here has different levels of understanding and scriptural education, when you speak to others, keep galatians 5:22-26 in mind.
 

DavyP

Active member
Aug 11, 2024
281
95
28
USA
#13
That was my whole point. The lexicons need to go beyond dictionary meanings to spiritual truth. Eternal damnation is never mentioned by them, even though it is plainly taught in Scripture.
That's never really going to happen with commentaries and Lexicons. Those only serve as helps in Bible study.

GOD Himself by The Holy Spirit in His Word is how a matter is properly understood by His servants. It takes time with prayer and study to mature in God's Word, but that is where you will find your answers, as God's Word covers a topic in more than one place in Bible Scripture. We simply have to study enough of The Bible in order to put all those examples together in our minds by The Holy Spirit.
 
Apr 7, 2024
101
43
28
66
#15
I wouldn't say that mercy trumps judgement. Because mercy can't rob justice.
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (Jas 2:8–13)​

This is a statement to those who would be judgemental that they should be merciful to people, considering themselves as in the same boat, instead of being judgemental towards them. And certainly mercy does triumph over judgement in this circumstance. And as you alluded to, there is no greater example of mercy triumphing over judgement that God choosing to sacrifice His Son for us instead of squashing us like bugs.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,723
554
113
#16
I love how God’s Mercy triumphs over His Judgment. God greatly desires to save us from our sins and clean us up… what a wonderful Papa God! :love:

However, there is only one way to be saved and receive God’s Mercy and that is the Blood and Body Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ….. NOTHING ELSE is acceptable to God.
The way, the truth and the new life offered us the people to believe, he is risen for us to be new, made new by Father to us, at least me thanks
no-one comes to the Father but through me, Jesus speaking this to us
The only mediator between God and us. Once believe God all in all, one leaves hating anyone else behind them, thanking Father for this done work of Son to now do too, in trust continually. to God Father and Son as Won (One) for me at least
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,723
554
113
#17
That was my whole point. The lexicons need to go beyond dictionary meanings to spiritual truth. Eternal damnation is never mentioned by them, even though it is plainly taught in Scripture.

Jesus already knew the whole world in under divine judgment. The point of my post was also was to show -- from Scripture -- that He did not hesitate to condemn (very strongly) when needed. And contrary to what you claim, Christians can make righteous judgements. In fact we are told to do so.
Provided it be

Luke 21:14-15
Authorized (King James) Version



14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Might be time for me to discern this truth as in Matthew 10:16-20 tells me. For I see God did what needed to be done by Son for us all to turn to God in belief to God and ask for this risen Life of Son to lead us in love and mercy to all as is now done for us all by Son in that last sacrifice for us all. Which, we, us, being in a flesh body, not yet redeemed makes it very hard to see, mixing Law and grace as I have done much in the past to myself and others too, seeing to let go of doing that and just trust Gods done work of Son. it is done by Son as in John 19:30, it is finished, under Law that is for the new life in the risen Christ to begin and get led by God, the Holy Spirit in the good work done by Son for us to do as led to do. Which might be condemn some personally between You and God to them for them, as long as it is to wake up, Father knows best for me at least, learning this daily. Galatians 3:19-26
Thanks, my two bits, reminding me God won in Son for us the people too stand in belief to this truth and be freed from under Law
Col. 1:21-23
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,723
554
113
#18
If it was a claim of mine, you might have a leg to stand on. But Romans 2:1 is very clear... "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." (Ro 2:1) Humility requires we consider our own weaknesses.

And there are other warnings against being judgemental...

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. (Mt 7:1–2)​

It is impossible for a person to escape the condemnation that he heaps upon another.
Yes, be sure in you it is not you doing that judging. Be sure God is leading you. I know this truth. To take talk to those in charge privately. Did Paul condemn the Corinthians? Yes and no at the same time. Were the Corinthians taking advantage of being forgiven? Using this being 100% forgiven, reconciled by God through Son to get whatever they in thier flesh nature desired without the consent of others in compassion to others or not? Simply did not allow others free will also, as you are saying not to do, thank you.
That is why Paul wrote to them, to straighten this misuse of grace out to them. First by putting them back under Law to reveal to them their need for the savior of Christ the risen one for them to be in fellowship with God Father and thus love all righteously as God already does and has done since day one
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,723
554
113
#19
Satan can only steal kill and destroy.
Yes and that is by attaching a thought to thoughts in our mindsets. It is up to us to see it as God reveals it to us in us, we then can breath and move forward in it, it is then not attaching to us anymore
Giving a thought more thought is not taking the thought captive and is a Wiley trick of the evil out and about all around us here in this world, seeking to trip anyone up it can. Learning truth over error and not in a scare, since God won for us to be safe by Son's resurrection form us to be new in love to all. I believe, I see and am still learning new in process too. Just got the thought to expand on what you said. Thanks as we all in belief continue to grow and God see us from first day anyone believes God all in all will do as said in Phil 1:6 to us all from Paul's writings there
I trust God will continue to carry on any good work god starts in anyone that believes God loves them too.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,723
554
113
#20
I wouldn't say that mercy trumps judgement. Because mercy can't rob justice. But there definitely is a perfect balance where through the atonement of Christ mercy is given while he pays the demands of justice. As we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, through the blood of Christ though our robes may be as scarlet they are washed clean through the blood of the lamb. (I know I'm blending verses but they tie together).
I think you might be saying:
see to it, no one takes this grace given for granted and use it unrighteously for any self gain over it.
Is that it?
I see the Corinthians letters say this truth to them, who were under the thought hey, I can do whatever I want now, since I am forgiven and remain as forgiven from God.
So they were eating up all the food getting drunk and taking advantage of others, having sex without any consent from others, against others wills.
I see God is most mad, over anyone taking away anyone else's free will. Since God gave us free will to begin with. I caught this truth from the Movie "Bruce Almighty" when Morgan Freeman said to Bruce you can do whatever you want, except take away free will from anyone else
When Bruce asked this question
How can I get anyone to love me, without taking away their free will?
Now, I began new to understand this truth and cannot see from the flesh nature view, only in God's spirit and truth. Love all and not a few as the flesh nature only does in the first birth
seeing it new from God's view, has changed me drastically.