What Changed?

[Genez]

Simple question.
Corrupted by who?

By what? The fallen nature.

The depravity of the body, the soul is entrapped in.

Grace must come in and silence the effects of the flesh.
That same power is what keeps us now, not walking after the flesh.

God in his sovereignty shuts up the fallen man's slave master, (flesh)
while giving that soul the freedom to choose as it so desires.
That is why every unbeliever will be found to be without excuse!

That is why we need to be saved by grace!
For grace is the power of God to make us able to be what is right.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10​

​

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in ​

persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."​

Too many today believe that God's grace is God having nice feeling towards us (unmerited favor),
and not knowing that grace is his power to make us to be made able to be what He wants us to be!

If truth is still being made known in the face of commonly accepted error? Then, God's plan continues working.

Sanity is one of the goals of maturity in Christ.

 

[Rufus]

No. You proved nothing by quoting the Bible. You built a case for your perspective and expressed your opinion on what you think certain scriptures mean. You refuse to listen open-mindedly to any alternative perspectives that threaten your own systematic. You refuse to acknowledge any possibility that other reasoned points that contradict your points could be even partly correct. Nothing you have cited has in any way disannulled the idea that a person who is "not good" because all facets of their being (body, mind, soul, strength, spirit, enotions) are imperfect, (Omni-faceted Imperfection) may nevertheless be capable of doing some degree of good by acting from areas in their being, areas within those facets, that are not Totally Depraved.

First, you have no clue of what "facets" of a person's "being" reside in the human heart. In your list above you list only two components that reside in the human heart -- mind and emotions. You conveniently omitted conscience and volition. And you talk about me refusing to have an open mind and refusing to listen to other people. (You must have missed the scriptures I very recently quoted that reveal to us of what the human heart consists.)

Secondly, if there are "areas in [man's] being that are not totally depraved, you need to prove that from scripture. Just flailing your arms in the air and claiming something is so doesn't make it truthful. Prove it from the Word. What areas in our "being" (essence, nature, heart?) are untouched by sin? Go for it. Make your case which in the end will be pathetic, anemic and above all else will CONTRADICT the Word of the Living God!

By the way, since there is no one who is inherently righteous, then this must mean that all mankind come into this world inherently unrighteous. If man was inherently righteous, none of us would need the alien righteousness of Jesus Christ.

You just refuse to believe Gal 5:9, don't you...even though Adam's one sin is the ultimate example of the truthfulness of this passage? His one sin not only ruined him but all of of his progeny even this planet! One SIN! A little bit of leaven leaven the whole lump -- the TOTAL lump.

 

[Rufus]

Simple question.
Corrupted by who?

By Adam's sin and their own personal sin. Everyone inherited Adam's sin nature. This is precisely why man cannot not sin. Man IS a sinner in his very essence. A lion feeds on prey (the overt behavior) precisely because the beast IS carnivorous by nature. All living creatures ACT out according to their nature. Man is no different.

 

[Rufus]

By what? The fallen nature.

The depravity of the body, the soul is entrapped in.

Grace must come in and silence the effects of the flesh.
That same power is what keeps us now, not walking after the flesh.

God in his sovereignty shuts up the fallen man's slave master, (flesh)
while giving that soul the freedom to choose as it so desires.
That is why every unbeliever will be found to be without excuse!

That is why we need to be saved by grace!
For grace is the power of God to make us able to be what is right.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10​

​

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in ​

persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."​

Too many today believe that God's grace is God having nice feeling towards us (unmerited favor),
and not knowing that grace is his power to make us to be made able to be what He wants us to be!

If truth is still being made known in the face of commonly accepted error? Then, God's plan continues working.

Sanity is one of the goals of maturity in Christ.

Wait a minute! You've been saying all along that our skin (flesh) is evil. Now, you're telling us that our nature is evil? Which is it, already?

 

[Genez]

Secondly, if there are "areas in [man's] being that are not totally depraved, you need to prove that from scripture.

You are the proof.
Or, God could save nothing of what you were before.

It's your soul He saves.

That same soul that was once ruled by the slave master of your flesh.

Hard to believe, isn't it?

One way to find out.
Get totally drunk.
Then try driving.
That's one way your flesh can control your soul, and why we are told not to get drunk.

 

[PaulThomson]

First, you have no clue of what "facets" of a person's "being" reside in the human heart. In your list above you list only two components that reside in the human heart -- mind and emotions. You conveniently omitted conscience and volition. And you talk about me refusing to have an open mind and refusing to listen to other people. (You must have missed the scriptures I very recently quoted that reveal to us of what the human heart consists.)

Secondly, if there are "areas in [man's] being that are not totally depraved, you need to prove that from scripture. Just flailing your arms in the air and claiming something is so doesn't make it truthful. Prove it from the Word. What areas in our "being" (essence, nature, heart?) are untouched by sin? Go for it. Make your case which in the end will be pathetic, anemic and above all else will CONTRADICT the Word of the Living God!

By the way, since there is no one who is inherently righteous, then this must mean that all mankind come into this world inherently unrighteous. If man was inherently righteous, none of us would need the alien righteousness of Jesus Christ.

You just refuse to believe Gal 5:9, don't you...even though Adam's one sin is the ultimate example of the truthfulness of this passage? His one sin not only ruined him but all of of his progeny even this planet! One SIN! A little bit of leaven leaven the whole lump -- the TOTAL lump.

I did not claim to be giving an exhaustive list. Are you arguing that the conscience and the will are not included in either the body, soul or spirit? Are you arguing that a sinner's conscience is incapable of recognising what is the right thing to do or say, and the sinner's will is incapable of wanting to do any right thing, and a sinner's mind is unable to think any correct thoughts, and the sinner is incapable of doing anything that contains any goodness?

The fact remains that the Greek present tense by default, unless context make such impossible, expresses an action that is continuous. So, "No one does good" may be primarily translated as "No one is doing good continuously." And since one slip into sin makes one in need of the Saviour, such a reading makes sense. No one keeps on doing good, therefore all need a Saviour.
Romans says that Jacob was chosen in the womb before neither Jacob nor Esau in the womb had done any good or evil.

For the same reason that babies in the womb cannot do good or evil, birn babies ignorant of the law cannot do good or evil either.

Is. 7:16 “For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.”

 

[Genez]

Wait a minute! You've been saying all along that our skin (flesh) is evil. Now, you're telling us that our nature is evil? Which is it, already?

Evil is not a good word of choice. That connotes Gnosticism.
"Defective" from birth, would be a more accurate connotation.

Being born with poor eyesight in itself is not evil.

But, God demanding all Christians with bad eyes must run an obstacle course to please him, would be futile.

Let's just say...
God's grace gives us needed contact lenses to run that race...
GRACE is power from God to make the helpless Christians enabled to please God!


2 Corinthians 12:9-10

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may
rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in
persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."


Grace is not really unmerited favor. Though the Greek root can be seen that way, but without a context to say what it is.

As Paul said, God's grace is power supplied by God to enable us to be what will merit His favor!
If we ever warrant blessing from God? Don't take credit.
For it was his grace that enabled us to become what will merit His favor!
He will bless those who submit to sound doctrine by walking in the Spirit, which will transform us into His image!


2 Corinthians 3:17-18

​

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, ​

who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image ​

with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.​

We all need to get good teaching to enable us to become transformed into His image.
Sound doctrine only is a must to suffice!

Paul was a major source for sound doctrine.
Paul was therefore qualified to write those words!


In Christ .....

 

[Genez]

The fact remains that the Greek present tense by default, unless context make such impossible, expresses an action that is continuous.

They can never learn that by reading the KJV, and most other translations, as well.

That is why we above all else need to locate by God's grace a competent man to teach us the Word of God!

Bring your favorite translation to the study if you wish.
But, find a good teacher whom God raised up, so you can learn what was near-impossible to express in a mere translation!

 

[Rufus]

You are the proof.
Or, God could save nothing of what you were before.

It's your soul He saves.

That same soul that was once ruled by the slave master of your flesh.

Hard to believe, isn't it?

One way to find out.
Get totally drunk.
Then try driving.
That's one way your flesh can control your soul, and why we are told not to get drunk.

You continue to wax on incoherently. Cannot heart surgeons in this fallen temporal reality replace useless hearts with a new one in what is commonly called a "heart transplant" procedure? And why do you limit God's power? "God could save NOTHING..."? You have a really low view of God, don't you? Don't you know that nothing is too difficult for God?

Getting drunk does not proceed from the skin that hangs off people's bones. Drunkeness, Gluttony, Sexual Immorality, etc., etc. proceed from within evil hearts. Sinful desires do not abide in or on our skin, but in evil hearts.

Did God circumcise your skin or your heart? Has God given you a new heart or new skin?

What part of this passage can't you understand:

Mark 7:20-23
20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within , out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'" ?
NIV

 

[Rufus]

They can never learn that by reading the KJV, and most other translations, as well.

That is why we above all else need to locate by God's grace a competent man to teach us the Word of God!

Bring your favorite translation to the study if you wish.
But, find a good teacher whom God raised up, so you can learn what was near-impossible to express in a mere translation!

So God is not a good teacher? Jesus not a good teacher? The Holy Spirit is another dud in the teaching dept.?

1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything—and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you—abide in him.
ESV

 

[Genez]

You continue to wax on incoherently. Cannot heart surgeons in this fallen temporal reality replace useless hearts with a new one in what is commonly called a "heart transplant" procedure?

In the Bible, it is not thinking of the physical heart.

Having no capacity for a dialogue one jumps into will make it seem incoherent.

 

[Genez]

So God is not a good teacher? Jesus not a good teacher? The Holy Spirit is another dud in the teaching dept.?

1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything—and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you—abide in him.
ESV

Ephesians 4:11-12

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up..

Some gifts are still functional for today. (evangelists, the pastors and teachers)

You seem to find them to be a nuisance for you.

That's because their existence will not allow for you to become your own authority onto yourself, as you crave to be.
If you found one of the good ones, you might be left knowingly to be without excuse....
For as long as you stick with the dumb ones, you would be correct to think you can do just as good a job for yourself.

Pray and seek for a competent, good pastor-teacher.

 

[Rufus]

In the Bible, it is not thinking of the physical heart.

Having no capacity for a dialogue one jumps into will make it seem incoherent.

Good grief! Are you so dull of hearing that you cannot perceive an analogy when I make one? If a heart surgeon can literally replace a useless, worn out heart with a new one -- then so CAN God! God gives all his chosen people NEW HEARTS -- not new flesh or new skins! So, God is in the heart transplant business as well. Why do you think Christians are called God's New Creation!? Comprende?

And, no, I do not find God's precious gifts useless -- no more than I find the Divine Teacher useless, as you do! You, on the other hand, have a tendency to toss out the baby with the wash water. You go to one extreme or the other. You should take to heart what Solomon wrote about avoiding extremes.

Are you so ignorant of the scriptures that you are unaware of the many passages that command, teach or exhort that individuals regularly engage in their own personal studies and meditations in the Word? Do you need to see those passages?

Here's a personal question. Be honest with me if you can. Do you spend quality quiet time with the Lord in the Word every day of your life, or are you just a Sunday bible toter that you carry to church with you to show everyone in your congregation how spiritual you are? As for me, God's grace impels me to hunger and thirst for his Truth, so I read, study, meditate on his Word every single morning . Christians are called to grow in grace and in the KNOWLEDGE of God. So, I'm in the Word every single day of my life -- at least once a day and often twice when I pick up his Word again before bedtime. Not bragging or boasting -- except in God's grace. I literally love God's truth because it brings great comfort, peace and joy to my soul.

 

[Genez]

Good grief! Are you so dull of hearing that you cannot perceive an analogy when I make one? If a heart surgeon can literally replace a useless, worn out heart with a new one -- then so CAN God! God gives all his chosen people NEW HEARTS -- not new flesh or new skins! So, God is in the heart transplant business as well. Why do you think Christians are called God's New Creation!? Comprende?.

Yes. I understand. It's me who does not understand.

And, that's what you want me to believe.

So be it...

 

[Rufus]

Yes. I understand. It's me who does not understand.

And, that's what you want me to believe.

So be it...

Congrats! You finally figured that out.

 

[Lamar]

By what? The fallen nature.

Who created the "fallen nature"?

 

[Lamar]

By Adam's sin and their own personal sin. Everyone inherited Adam's sin nature.

Okay but who created or allowed to be inherited this "sin nature"?

Could or did Adam force this nature upon his offspring without God's doing?

Where did Adam get his sin nature? Did Eve also have this sin nature?

 

[Rufus]

Okay but who created or allowed to be inherited this "sin nature"?

Who else but God? It's how he designed us.

Could

or did Adam force this nature upon his offspring without God's doing?

How would Adam Do that? He was but a mere mortal. Again, it's the way God designed mankind.

[quote[Where did Adam get his sin nature? Did Eve also have this sin nature? [/QUOTE]

The Fall very likely had a very deep and profound physiological affect upon Adam, and most likely Eve as well (although scripture is silent about Eve in this regard.) In other words, Adam's sin affected his whole person. Adam died spiritually when he sinned. He came into this world as a "living being" (or soul) since God had breathed his Spirit into Adam's nostrils. But after he sinned, God he died, which clearly implies that God removed his Spirit from him.

I believe, as Genez does, (but I'm not dogmatic on it at this point in my life) that Adam's sin nature was likely transmitted to his progeny by his sperm. This probably accounts for why God's promise of a Redeemer in Gen 3 who would come from the Woman's [godly] seed would have been highly unusual and counterintuitive language for the ancient world because the ancients would immediately relate "seed" to a man's sperm. It's the woman's ovum that gets "seeded" by a male's sperm. And, of the course, the supernatural virgin birth of Christ very strongly reinforces my hypothesis.

Another fact that strongly supports it is that in Luke's genealogy, the Son of God did not descend from Adam, rather Adam "descended" from the Son of God, i.e. was created by the Son.

So...the upshot is...is that man is a complex being consisting of material and immaterial parts, and it's very likely that both parts are inextricably entwined with one another. For example, in Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it to be in this world) that emotional stress, anxiety, etc. very often can have profound effects on us physically. Or vice versa for that matter. When our bodies are physically hurting or distressed this will impact us psychologically, mentally and/or emotionally.

 

[Genez]

Congrats! You finally figured that out.

Yes, I did.

Congratulations, Mr. Gaslighter.

 

[Genez]

Who created the "fallen nature"?

Who created rotted meat?
Who created sour milk?
Who created moldy bread?

God created the consequences of becoming fallen, which was the result of rebellious wrong desire against God's will.