What Changed?

[PaulThomson]

The only thing that is needs to be understood re Total Depravity is that man's heart is desperately wicked, and therefore ALL man's four faculties therein are corrupt. All = Total. Easy to understand.

Desperately wicked does not mean the same thing as totally depraved. All faculties of sinners are imperfect. That does not account for the faculties of those who have not yet sinned. Nor does it get you logically to the conclusion that sinners who are imperfect people cannot do any good with their imperfect faculties.

 

[PaulThomson]

It's both! New heart and being raised from the dead! In fact, it's also referred to as being "born again" or "born from above". Are you totally oblivious to all the passages that speak to the spiritual resurrection?

List a few texts to support your claim of "spiritual resurrection" being a thing. That would require a biblical definition of spiritual death and examples of people come to life from absolute spiritual death.

 

[JohnRH]

If sin was not taken into account until Moses (the time come when there is law), then all that died up to then died solely on the account of death being in the world, yet death passed on to all men because all sinned... This begs the question then, who was or was not doing any accounting?

It's a tough subject, but here are a few tidbits that come to mind:

There was God's law prior to Moses/Sinai. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Gen 26:5

(God to Cain) ... sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Gen 4:7 In order for Cain to rule over sin (a transgression of the law), he would first have to know the standard for that ruling (the law). This happened when Cain was "wroth" because God didn't respect his offering. Cain would have known that if he were angry at God for any reason, the fault would have to be his own.

In Romans 1:29-32 there is a list of 23 explicit sins that every man knows via God's direct revelation ("in them", v.19). These people "know God's judgement" and they know the verdict & sentencing: "worthy of death". They have the "work of the law" written in their hearts (2:15).

I believe people's (own personal) sins WERE imputed to them because there WAS God's law. They hadn't sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression - but they sinned their own sins.
(Newborns, on the other hand, don't have the law. Even though the subject of babies appears to be beyond the scope of what Paul's talking about in Rom. 5; it can still be extracted from that text).

The fact that, after entering through Adam's sin, death reigned may provide an answer for that. Adam rendered all men subject to death, but would it require a leap over a gap in logic to claim that Adam rendered all men subject to sin? I'm not so sure that it does. Susceptible, surely, I can't find reason to argue that. But as long, as there was one man that did not bow his knee to sin, then I can't confidently claim that "all men are subject to sin."

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners ... (Romans 5:19) I think the reason "many" is used instead of "all" is that Paul is establishing a parallel in the 2nd part of the verse that requires "many": ... so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (The previous verse (18) does use "all" in both sides of its parallel.) But it shows that Adam's disobedience wasn't just the cause of death, but also of people being made sinners.

 

[Mem]

(The previous verse (18) does use "all" in both sides of its parallel.) But it shows that Adam's disobedience wasn't just the cause of death, but also of people being made sinners.

I agree that this is speak in general terms, but I stop short in agreeing that people are born sinning.
"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws"> Abraham received all my words and kept them.

I could not follow the argument in your last paragraph though. What were you trying to communicate.

JohnRH brought up an opportunity to segway into that which I'd been trying to communicate, that though Adam brought sin and death into the world, thus affecting it, doesn't demand that everyone afterwards necessarily sins, i.e. that Cain's sin caused Abel's death is a case in point.

 

[Rufus]

You prove yourself unable to think critically for yourself. You simply take whatever experts say that confirms your bias, and hand wave away facts that blow a hole in that bias. Read Ex 18. Is it even possible to interpret the Hebrew verb form used regarding Moses and the people becoming worn out as if Moses would instantly be full exhausted if he spent one more second following his present methodology? No it doesn't. So, why insist that the same verb form in Gen 2 must mean that Adam would immediately die the second he ate from the tree. Both texts make perfect sense when "to die you will be dying" and "to wear out you will be wearing out" are interpreted as progressive conditions resulting in a resultant complete death or exhaustion. Why go with experts whose judgment is so contrary to the evidence of the texts and their contexts?

Yes, I rely on the language experts' consensus and also examine to see if their translation squares with the rest of the bible. Therefore, I don't ultimately rely upon them. I ultimately rely upon the authority of scripture. Adam literally died spiritually on the day he ate the fruit and he became a child of the devil. Scripture teaches that all in Adam are dead. So...when did Adam's progeny spiritually die?

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
NIV

And when did John and his audience pass from death to life?

 

[Rufus]

I agree that this is speak in general terms, but I stop short in agreeing that people are born sinning.
"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws"> Abraham received all my words and kept them.

JohnRH brought up an opportunity to segway into that which I'd been trying to communicate, that though Adam brought sin and death into the world, thus affecting it, doesn't demand that everyone afterwards necessarily sins, i.e. that Cain's sin caused Abel's death is a case in point.

Then are you saying that people are born righteous in obedience to God's commands?

 

[Rufus]

Desperately wicked does not mean the same thing as totally depraved. All faculties of sinners are imperfect. That does not account for the faculties of those who have not yet sinned. Nor does it get you logically to the conclusion that sinners who are imperfect people cannot do any good with their imperfect faculties.

Of course it does. Total = ALL. And by "all" is meant ALL four faculties, which in turn means the WHOLE heart. The TOTAL heart.

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

 

[Rufus]

Of course it does. Total = ALL. And by "all" is meant ALL four faculties, which in turn means the WHOLE heart. The TOTAL heart.

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

And all Adam's progeny come into this world in this spiritual condition. We inherited it from him.

 

[SaysWhat]

When did this happen before the Second Coming?

No that's the point, running free.

 

[JohnRH]

I agree that this is speak in general terms, but I stop short in agreeing that people are born sinning.

I don't think people are born "sinning" (an action) either.
I believe they are born of the flesh (a state) and need to be born of the Spirit.
I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: Romans 7:18 (KJV)
... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50 (KJV)
We inherit our flesh & corruption from Adam (the man who died the very day he ate the fruit). We're born dead (not born of the Spirit) from the womb. By Adam's disobedience we're made sinners before we actually commit our first sin.

 

[Rufus]

I don't think people are born "sinning" (an action) either.
I believe they are born of the flesh (a state) and need to be born of the Spirit.
I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: Romans 7:18 (KJV)
... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50 (KJV)
We inherit our flesh & corruption from Adam (the man who died the very day he ate the fruit). We're born dead (not born of the Spirit) from the womb. By Adam's disobedience we're made sinners before we actually commit our first sin.

Exactly right! We are born sinners which is why we all sin! Not a difficult concept to understand at all; yet many in the Church refuse to believe that we are sinners by nature.

 

[Mem]

Then are you saying that people are born righteous in obedience to God's commands?

You have to make a logical leap to fill in that gap in what I am saying.

 

[Mem]

By Adam's disobedience we're made sinners before we actually commit our first sin.

In the sense that I'm made a walker before I actually walk, or a runner before I actually run.

 

[Rufus]

You have to make a logical leap to fill in that gap in what I am saying.

I have to? Why don't you just answer the question? In your universe, there must be at minimum three moral-spiritual options.

 

[Rufus]

In the sense that I'm made a walker before I actually walk, or a runner before I actually run.

Or in the sense that you were made a rational, personal, moral, affectionate being before you did anything to become any of those monikers.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No that's the point, running free.

The Bible states Satan is not bound until after the Battle at Armageddon. Are you saying this has already happened?

 

[Mem]

I have to? Why don't you just answer the question? In your universe, there must be at minimum three moral-spiritual options.

How did I say that anyone is born righteous when it is the so-called predestination doctrine that actually seems to suggest so?

 

[JohnRH]

In the sense that I'm made a walker before I actually walk, or a runner before I actually run.

Rufus gave an illustration earlier that I like. A lion cub is a carnivore before he ever eats his first morsel of meat. He eats meat because he was born a carnivore by nature.

 

[Rufus]

How did I say that anyone is born righteous when it is the so-called predestination doctrine that actually seems to suggest so?

So, then with what kind of moral-spiritual nature is everyone born?

 

[Magenta]

So, then with what kind of moral-spiritual nature is everyone born?

JohnRH answered that already... though some want to believe that no good thing means something good.

I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: Romans 7:18 (KJV)