What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Diakonos]

After your initial 'correction' I don't think I've had any conversations with you

The correction was made in post# 481. Since then, we exchanged roughly 33 comments with each other on this thread before I made the comment about sticking to one conversation at a time. Many of them were the result of you starting new conversations with me based off of my original conversations with others.

you were responding to CV5 's sarcastic comment--not much of a theological discussion going on there

Exactly. The less doctrinally serious, the less it matters.
And he and I were not having an ongoing discussion already. So I didn't mind commenting on his post.
If he and I were already having an ongoing conversation in this thread, then I would not be inclined to make that comment.

P.S. The way you know if someone is responding to another person is that right above their text it says ("[user] said"). It's a huge blue line at the top of the comment (on the left).

P.S.S. You and I already have a private conversation where we can talk about this, but you haven't responded to my last message. I don't understand why you're more interested in commenting on my conversations with others than my direct conversation with you.

 

[arpon]

And by the way, that is a great question--yes, how could they be alive since Eternal Life is a GIFT and it's only given to the BELIEVER, not the unbeliever!

Actually people change their position or not it does not matter to me. I want to know the truth. for me the truth is I don't know, and sharing gospel is more important than that and God want me to do that more than giving punishment.

 

[arpon]

The second death lasts forever after. Hence it is everlasting destruction/punishment.

There is no coming back from it.

Some will say ridiculous things like, it is not punishment if you are not aware of it.

LOL

Death has been used as an extreme and very feared form of punishment for century upon century.

Suddenly, poof! Oops, it is not punishment because the person is now dead and does not know they are dead???

Their punishment removed all consciousness and life from them, so we cannot call it punishment???

What can I say? The opposition is flimsy and non-sensical.

I think God use punishment to correct us, not to destroy us. He does not want to punish but punish for our own good. We should not afraid of Gods punishment cause its for our good. But my issue is that we are talking about punishment as it is a bad thing. isn't is humans perspective?

 

[Magenta]

I don't know why you think it's so funny. It's actually pretty rude and putting down of people to laugh at their ideas especially one that is not that strange.
In your eyes what happens is a blotting out / non-existence / no-consciousness / GONE. Can you fathom that? I don't think you can which actually speaks to the argument of eternal punishment. Then again as a conscious creature it's hard to take one's mind to that place just because one does not know it.
(again I'm on the opposite POV as you but I was taught that POV and I am most definitely open to being wrong. What this thread has shown me is that I don't know my Bible anywhere near as much as I thought I did)

To put it crudely it's like someone in the Sahara missing ice cream.

That is not doctrinal support. That is, in my mind, logic. It's very much light obliterating darkness in a room. There is no stench of darkness, it's just gone and will be gone as long as there is light.

I do not think it is funny... just ridiculous to claim death is not punishment.

I have given quite a lot of Scriptural support for my view. Not my fault if you missed it.

 

[Laura798]

The correction was made in post# 481. Since then, we exchanged roughly 33 comments with each other on this thread before I made the comment about sticking to one conversation at a time. Many of them were the result of you starting new conversations with me based off of my original conversations with others.

Exactly. The less doctrinally serious, the less it matters.
And he and I were not having an ongoing discussion already. So I didn't mind commenting on his post. < so then why bother bringing it up?

If he and I were already having an ongoing conversation in this thread, then I would not be inclined to make that comment.

P.S. The way you know if someone is responding to another person is that right above their text it says ("[user] said"). It's a huge blue line at the top of the comment (on the left).< thanks i'll keep that in mind going forward

P.S.S. You and I already have a private conversation where we can talk about this, but you haven't responded to my last message. I don't understand why you're more interested in commenting on my conversations with others than my direct conversation with you.

Enough. You are not listening. I have not commented on any of your conversations since you communicated for me not to. And this last one you should've simply let slide, considering it was not a theological discussion. I really don't care to engage with you further.

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."--1st Corinthians 13:2

 

[Magenta]

I think God use punishment to correct us, not to destroy us. He does not want to punish but punish for our own good. We should not afraid of Gods punishment cause its for our good. But my issue is that we are talking about punishment as it is a bad thing. isn't is humans perspective?

Please make a distinction between God chastising His children and God punishing the wicked.

He draws all with loving kindness, however, they have no excuse to reject Him.

Perhaps read chapter six of Genesis again?

 

[arpon]

Please make a distinction between God chastising His children and God punishing the wicked.

He draws all with loving kindness, however, they have no excuse to reject Him.

Perhaps read chapter six of Genesis again?

Israel was told gods child and bride and God punished them. Adam, Eve gods child, God punished them. They have no excuse to reject him but they still rejects and god punish for their own good.

 

[Magenta]

Israel was told gods child and bride and God punished them. Adam, Eve gods child, God punished them. They have no excuse to reject him but they still rejects and god punish for their own good.

How did God punish them? Adam and Eve He cast out and left to fend on their own. He basically did the same with the Israelites until they would repent. How many times do you think that happened? The OT record shows that the nation of Israel repeatedly turned away from the Lord. He did not have to do anything but remove His protection and ignore Israel’s cries for restoration until “they acknowledge their offense, and seek my face.”

 

[arpon]

My mistake, sorry. In our language punishment and chastising is stated as same word in bible. SO I got confused. Thank you for responding.

But isn't Gods punishment is also a blessing to wicked from him? So that wicked people can no longer harm themselves or other? God is trying to deliver them totally from their wickedness? (Not sure, Just want to know). Would you tell me please?

 

[Diakonos]

< so then why bother bringing it up?

you brought it up...(see below)

PS I'm looking back at the posting and you were responding to CV5 's sarcastic comment--not much of a theological discussion going on there....

Exactly. The less doctrinally serious, the less it matters.
And he and I were not having an ongoing discussion already. So I didn't mind commenting on his post.
If he and I were already having an ongoing conversation in this thread, then I would not be inclined to make that comment.

 

[Diakonos]

< so then why bother bringing it up?

you brought it up (see below). You said...

PS I'm looking back at the posting and you were responding to CV5 's sarcastic comment--not much of a theological discussion going on there....

To which I responded...

Exactly. The less doctrinally serious, the less it matters.
And he and I were not having an ongoing discussion already. So I didn't mind commenting on his post.
If he and I were already having an ongoing conversation in this thread, then I would not be inclined to make that comment.

 

[Laura798]

More on the Origins Eternal Conscious Torment

The Perpetrators
Introduction: The following quotes from early philosophers and Church Fathers prove where the modern concept of a "Hell of everlasting punishment" came from. The quotes also expose those who are still perpetuating those concepts. The first group of quotes represents proof regarding the originators of the concept. The second group of quotations are from Christian leaders who have been instrumental in perpetuating these diabolical thoughts.

Polybius, the ancient historian, says: "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." B. vi 56.

Strabo, the geographer, says: "The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue - but this must be done by superstition, or the fear of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder, the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, &c., are all fables, as is also all the ancient theology. These things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude." Geog., B. I


Tertullian (considered by many to be the father of modern church doctrine) "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness…"

Gerhard "The Blessed will see their friends and relations among the damned as often as they like but without the least of compassion.”

Charles Spurgeon (Commonly called the "Prince of Preachers" for being a preacher of great eloquence) "I further believe, although certain persons deny it, that the influence of fear is to be exercised over the minds of men and that it ought to operate upon the mind of the preacher himself."

Thomas Aquinas "That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them"

Jeremy Taylor "Husbands shall see their wives, parents shall see their children tormented before their eyes…the bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell like grapes in a wine-press, which press on another till they burst…"

Richard Baxter "It is not a terrible thing to a wretched soul, when it shall lie roaring perpetually in the flames of hell, and the God of mercy himself shall laugh at them; when…God shall mock them instead of relieving them; when none in heaven or earth can help them but God, and he shall rejoice over them in their calamity ." – (The Saint's Everlasting Rest” 1846)

Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R "The fifth dungeon is the red hot oven. The little child is in the red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor." (The Sight of Hell - Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)

Reverend E.B. Pusey, D.D. "Gather in one, in your mind, an assembly of all those men and women, from whom, whether in history or in fiction, your memory most shrinks, gather in mind all that is loathsome, most revolting * * * conceive the fierce, fiery eyes of hate, spite, frenzied rage, ever fixed on thee, looking thee through and through with hate * * * hear those yells of blaspheming concentrated hate, as they echo along the lurid vault of hell; everyone hating everyone * * * Yet a fixedness in that state in which the hardened malignant sinner dies, involves, without any further retribution of God, this endless misery." (Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)

Voltaire "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

http://mercifultruth.com/aboutme.html

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."--Romans 6:23

 

[Magenta]

My mistake, sorry. In our language punishment and chastising is stated as same word in bible. SO I got confused. Thank you for responding.

But isn't Gods punishment is also a blessing to wicked from him? So that wicked people can no longer harm themselves or other? God is trying to deliver them totally from their wickedness? (Not sure, Just want to know). Would you tell me please?

God's punishment is just and done in love, yes! That is part of the reason eternal conscious torment is rejected.

Completely removing from creation those who refuse to acknowledge His
sovereignty is an apt punishment, quite unlike everlasting torment in fire.

Some complain and say, then the non-believer gets what they want!

That is false. Nobody in their right mind wants to stop existing.

PS~ it would be better if you used the Reply function/option at the
bottom right hand side of the post to which you are responding

 

[arpon]

God's punishment is just and done in love, yes! That is part of the reason eternal conscious torment is rejected.

Completely removing from creation those who refuse to acknowledge His
sovereignty is an apt punishment, quite unlike everlasting torment in fire.

Some complain and say, then the non-believer gets what they want!

That is false. Nobody in their right mind wants to stop existing.

PS~ it would be better if you used the Reply function/option at the
bottom right hand side of the post to which you are responding

Thank you sister. Appreciate it.

 

[Gideon300]

Eternal punishment is the correct doctrine but the bible says the punishment is death not torture so you are wrong.

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Do you know what death means? It is certainly not the end of existence. Adam died the moment that he disobeyed God. We are all born dead in trespass and sin. Having to exist with the knowledge that you refused God's love, mercy and grace will be pretty tough.

 

[akaBeliever]

When the whirlwind passes by, the wicked is no more, But the righteous has an everlasting foundation.

- Proverbs 10:25 (NKJV)

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23 (NKJV)

It would seem that those who believe in eternal torment would have us believe that death actually means the exact opposite of what it really is! In other words, since “the wages of sin” to them is not death at all, but rather immortal life in conscious torment, their definition of death means something entirely opposite to literal death! ….but if we take “eternal life” literally, we must also take “death” literally—death is promised as a punishment for ungodly sinners and life is promised as a gift for the righteous.…right?

And, if there is to be no real death for unrepentant sinners there will be no real life for repentant saints. What word could better describe the end of life than ‘death’? The only way a person can accept the view of eternal torture is to believe that death does not mean death, that die does not mean die, that destroy does not mean destroy, that perish does not mean perish and that destruction does not mean destruction.

 

[Runningman]

If your appeal to this chapter interprets Adam's death as spiritual, then you have to say that Jesus died spiritually too.

Let's agree to disagree on the rest, but I'll address this final point I quoted above.

Do we agree that all people physically die whether they are in Christ out not in Christ?

Consider these verses:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Cor. 15:21-22 says that " as in Adam all die" which does not mean physical death because everyone in Christ also dies a physical death. This means that spiritual death came by Adam and spiritual life came by Christ.

Now back to Romans 5:

Romans 5:12-14
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death by sin, that is spiritual death, came through Adam. Why? Because "even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression," still die spiritualy.

Why is this not physical death? Because even Christians die physically.

Romans 5:15-17
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Do you see here that Adam's physical death is not what caused everyone else to die, but rather his spiritual death through sin? It was Christ's Spritual life, His sinlessness, that causes those with faith to have eternal life.

Romans 518-21
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Need I say more? Romans 5 is all about spiritual death and spiritual life.

Christ did not die spiritually. Please read Romans 5 in the Bible version of your choosing. I only quote KJV on this forum, but in reality I read several different versions that are clearer to me.

 

[arpon]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23 (NKJV)

It would seem that those who believe in eternal torment would have us believe that death actually means the exact opposite of what it really is! In other words, since “the wages of sin” to them is not death at all, but rather immortal life in conscious torment, their definition of death means something entirely opposite to literal death! ….but if we take “eternal life” literally, we must also take “death” literally—death is promised as a punishment for ungodly sinners and life is promised as a gift for the righteous.…right?

And, if there is to be no real death for unrepentant sinners there will be no real life for repentant saints. What word could better describe the end of life than ‘death’? The only way a person can accept the view of eternal torture is to believe that death does not mean death, that die does not mean die, that destroy does not mean destroy, that perish does not mean perish and that destruction does not mean destruction.

Sorry for interrupt. What I think about eternal life is- If anyone is with God he is in eternal life. Without God there is no eternal life. So I have eternal life does not mean that I will hold eternal life for eternity. As long as I am holding God I will live eternally. (eternal life is also conditional, as long as I live with and within God I have it, When I reject him, I will not live.)- My thinking can be wrong off course.
+ So if I am not with God, off course I will have eternal death, cause there will be no option + no coming back after my physical death.

 

[Runningman]

Eternal punishment is the correct doctrine but the bible says the punishment is death not torture so you are wrong.

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It's impossible to be punished forever and still be alive if the sentence is plainly death. That would be like literally beating a dead horse for past offenses.

Furthermore, I am considering Isaiah 52:14 now "14As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:"

Does this suggest that Christ suffered more than anyone? If so, how is that possible if someone is suffering day and night without rest, eternally, in torment?