What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[cv5]

"Similarly, the JUSTIFIED in Christ Jesus will be judged at the Bema seat....for <<<ETERNAL>>> REWARDS."

 

[Laura798]

@Yahshua,

I assume that in a post above you were preaching that the devil will be completely annihilated also at some point?

My question: how do you interpret the following scripture?

Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

justby faith,

As I have said in other posts in this forum we must test scripture against scripture. we also must look at the context to extricate the meaning of verses. we know that Revelation is a VISION john sees. In this context 'torment' means punishment. The original Greek meaning of torment was a stone which tested the purity of gold. Please see the different meaning of 'torment' in Greek.

http://seedandbread.org/download/Seed-and-Bread/SB183WhatDoesTORMENTMean.pdf

We know during the Spanish Inquisition people were tortured to extract truth from them--the point of this was to get to the 'truth' . This is how we came to use the word torment in our modern times, but this is not what John is saying.

Everything in Revelation is symbolic-- 'day and night forever and ever' is what John SEES, but what it represents is Eternal Punishment.
By comparing Scripture to Scripture we see throughout the Bible that that the wicked will be destroyed. An angel cannot die, therefore God will literally speak them out of existence. Eternal Fire signifies complete and utter ANNIHILATION. If a fire were to burn forever (which they never do) then the thing it is burning would be obliterated.

"And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—"--2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Consider what the word "destroy G2673" means [...<snip>...]

[quoting from BibleHub, under "Thayer's Greek Lexicon"]

"[...] to cause a person or a thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power (A. V. bring to nought, make of none effect): τί, Romans 3:3; 1 Corinthians 1:28; τινα, 1 Corinthians 2:6 (but in passive); diabolic powers, 1 Corinthians 15:24 (Justin Martyr, Apology 2, 6); Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2:8; τόν θάνατον, 2 Timothy 1:10 (Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]); τόν διάβολον, Hebrews 2:14; passive 1 Corinthians 15:26;"

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/2673.htm

...

but a different word, Strongs #2673 meaning to render powerless or annul.

Yep.

Same word used in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 regarding "the man of sin" (the antichrist).

G2673


...which the text of 2Th2:8b states this occurs at the "MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth Rev19)

 

[Diakonos]

Same in nature, I'll try to briefly explain why I believe that.

First death is spiritual death, not separation from God:

Genesis 2:17
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam and Eve did not physically die on the day they ate fruit, nor did God separate Himself from hem. He made clothes for them and continued interacting with their descendants through history.

Second death occurs after the first resurrection:

John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 20:14-15
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Thank you for taking the time to help me understand your position.
Following your paradigm of the 2 deaths, which death is physical death?

Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 21:8 say the lake of fire is the second death.

But you claimed that it is a symbol of the second death. For what reason do you make that claim?

"That they may know You" expresses the possibility of knowing God, not the guarantee of knowing God. Having eternal life, then, means having the possibility of knowing God.

So you believe that Jesus' definition of "eternal life" is: "having the possibility of knowing God"?
That would mean that everyone currently has eternal life because everyone currently has the possibility of knowing God.
John 3, 1 John 5 says that believers are the only ones who currently possess eternal life...which negates your interpretation.
Jesus was clearly defining eternal life as knowing God (personally). The reason translators added "may" is to express the subjective mood that Jesus had (he strongly desires us to have eternal life), which is portrayed throughout the rest of His prayer.

if God "never knew" us then that eliminates the possibility of eternal life

This contradicts your claim of Jesus' definition of eternal life.
Everyone has the possibility of knowing God. But not everyone has eternal life. So the definition of "eternal life" cannot be "the possibility of knowing God".


...So back to my statement:

Eternal life is in the Bible is not defined as "remaining conscious" or "awake" or "able to move" or etc.
““This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)

Knowing God forever is eternal life, not merely being awake or conscious.

 

[cv5]

justby faith,

As I have said in other posts in this forum we must test scripture against scripture. we also must look at the context to extricate the meaning of verses. we know that Revelation is a VISION john sees. In this context 'torment' means punishment. The original Greek meaning of torment was a stone which tested the purity of gold. Please see the different meaning of 'torment' in Greek.

http://seedandbread.org/download/Seed-and-Bread/SB183WhatDoesTORMENTMean.pdf

We know during the Spanish Inquisition people were tortured to extract truth from them--the point of this was to get to the 'truth' . This is how we came to use the word torment in our modern times, but this is not what John is saying.

Everything in Revelation is symbolic-- 'day and night forever and ever' is what John SEES, but what it represents is Eternal Punishment.
By comparing Scripture to Scripture we see throughout the Bible that that the wicked will be destroyed. An angel cannot die, therefore God will literally speak them out of existence. Eternal Fire signifies complete and utter ANNIHILATION. If a fire were to burn forever (which they never do) then the thing it is burning would be obliterated.

"And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—"--2 Thessalonians 2:8

No you've got that all wrong....

2 Thes 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting (G166 aionios) destruction (G3639 olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

G166 - without end, never to cease, everlasting

 

[Runningman]

Consider what the word "destroy G2673" means, in Heb2:14 -


[quoting from BibleHub, under "Thayer's Greek Lexicon"]

"[...] to cause a person or a thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power (A. V. bring to nought, make of none effect): τί, Romans 3:3; 1 Corinthians 1:28; τινα, 1 Corinthians 2:6 (but in passive); diabolic powers, 1 Corinthians 15:24 (Justin Martyr, Apology 2, 6); Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2:8; τόν θάνατον, 2 Timothy 1:10 (Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]); τόν διάβολον, Hebrews 2:14; passive 1 Corinthians 15:26;"

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/2673.htm

"bring to nought, make of none effect"

What you said describes exactly what happens when something or someone is destroyed. The Bible repeatedly uses the word destroyed when talking about things that are "brought to nought" which means brought to nothing or none.

If absolutely anything remains, whether it be consciousness, a body, a soul, a spirit, after it has been allegedly destroyed, or brought to nothing, then it wasn't actually destroyed.

I maintain that what is destroyed in the Bible means annihilation because the plaintext of the scripture describes it. Annihilation is, therefore, sola scriptura and it does not require any interpretation to understand.

Where people get the doctrine of eternal torment is by not allowing destroyed to just mean destroyed.

 

[Diakonos]

You asked "To preface all of this, please first answer this: Are the first death and the second death-different in nature or-same in nature?"

The first death is man's natural death

My conversation with others is not the same as my conversation with you. The reason I asked this specific question to the other member is that they do not believe the first death is physical death according to their previous posts. I have to sift through that issue with them before I make progress with them for the annihilation topic.

Please keep our conversation between us and let me continue my conversation with others. I have to establish common ground with each person before we can make meaningful progress. What you and I agree on is not necessarily congruent between me and others. Only the comments that are in response to your comments are directed at you.
Does that make sense?

 

[ewq1938]

No you've got that all wrong....

2 Thes 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting (G166 aionios) destruction (G3639 olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

Does that say "everlasting life" or "everlasting destruction"? I believe that they will have everlasting destruction but you do not. You think they will have everlasting life, contrary to what the scripture says.

 

[Diakonos]

How does he know it's a symbol? Because the angel says so four times! See post #533 with bible verses

Again, this is between me and another member. Lets finish our conversation before switching to other aspects of the topic.
But in response to this, the angel does not say the lake of fire is a symbol of the second death. The angel says the lake of fire is the second death.

Whenever someone imposes another/additional meaning to the plain text of Scripture, they must have a Biblical reason. So if the verse, itself, or another verse tells us that the lake of fire is symbolic, then that would be a more plausible claim.

Now... let's return to our conversation and not muddy the waters.

 

[Diakonos]

I meant to include this with my previous comment:

Same in nature, I'll try to briefly explain why I believe that.

First death is spiritual death, not separation from God:

Let's test that:

If that is true, then how do you differentiate which "death" is mentioned in a given Bible verse when it doesn't describe the spirit or separation?

 

[ewq1938]

I meant to include this with my previous comment:


Let's test that:

If that is true, then how do you differentiate which "death" is mentioned in a given Bible verse when it doesn't describe the spirit or separation?

Unfortunately the bible never says the words "the first death" so we have to reverse engineer what "the second death" is to understand what the first death would be.


Before the second death happens, the unsaved dead will be resurrected back to mortal and physical life. When the bible mentions the second death, it is speaking of a literal death (of body, soul and spirit) with nothing left alive. That means first death is the normal death people experience, which also is a literal death except only the body dies.


The spiritual or figurative death Adam experienced is not related to the first and second deaths (the first literal death and the second literal death) ie: it should not be called the first death because that adds confusion since the first death that a mortal body experiences is not a spiritual death.

1. The first death is death of body ie: when someone dies.

2. The second death is the second time a mortal body dies, the soul and spirit will also die and the fire in the lake will consume all three ie: the entirety of a person.


Spiritual death is a figurative type of death so is not numbered. However this type of death can happen to someone who has not physically died the first death of the body.



First death: human body dies, soul and spirit remain alive.
Second death: human body, soul and spirit die, nothing remains alive.

 

[cv5]

No you've got that all wrong....

2 Thes 1:9
Who shall be pnished with everlasting (G166 aionios) destruction (G3639 olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

G166 - without end, never to cease, everlasting

G3639 olethros - ruination
"However does not imply extinction, rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete undoing"

 

[cv5]

Does that say "everlasting life" or "everlasting destruction"? I believe that they will have everlasting destruction but you do not. You think they will have everlasting life, contrary to what the scripture says.

Flipsides of the same coin. Both are eternal. One is victory, joy, satisfaction and glory, the other is defeat, anguish, loss and eternal regret.

 

[Gardenias]

Thank you for taking the time to help me understand your position.
Following your paradigm of the 2 deaths, which death is physical death?


But you claimed that it is a symbol of the second death. For what reason do you make that claim?


So you believe that Jesus' definition of "eternal life" is: "having the possibility of knowing God"?
That would mean that everyone currently has eternal life because everyone currently has the possibility of knowing God.
John 3, 1 John 5 says that believers are the only ones who currently possess eternal life...which negates your interpretation.
Jesus was clearly defining eternal life as knowing God (personally). The reason translators added "may" is to express the subjective mood that Jesus had (he strongly desires us to have eternal life), which is portrayed throughout the rest of His prayer.


This contradicts your claim of Jesus' definition of eternal life.
Everyone has the possibility of knowing God. But not everyone has eternal life. So the definition of "eternal life" cannot be "the possibility of knowing God".


...So back to my statement:

Eternal life is in the Bible is not defined as "remaining conscious" or "awake" or "able to move" or etc.
““This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)

Knowing God forever is eternal life, not merely being awake or conscious.

Blessings young man, thanks be to God for the wisdom you display in your study of the word.
Joy to you for the peaceful spirit you portray , it's so easy to see the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT in your responses!

 

[cv5]

Unfortunately the bible never says the words "the first death" so we have to reverse engineer what "the second death" is to understand what the first death would be.


Before the second death happens, the unsaved dead will be resurrected back to mortal and physical life. When the bible mentions the second death, it is speaking of a literal death (of body, soul and spirit) with nothing left alive. That means first death is the normal death people experience, which also is a literal death except only the body dies.


The spiritual or figurative death Adam experienced is not related to the first and second deaths (the first literal death and the second literal death) ie: it should not be called the first death because that adds confusion since the first death that a mortal body experiences is not a spiritual death.

1. The first death is death of body ie: when someone dies.

2. The second death is the second time a mortal body dies, the soul and spirit will also die and the fire in the lake will consume all three ie: the entirety of a person.


Spiritual death is a figurative type of death so is not numbered. However this type of death can happen to someone who has not physically died the first death of the body.



First death: human body dies, soul and spirit remain alive.
Second death: human body, soul and spirit die, nothing remains alive.

Mark 9:43-48......3X Jesus says...
"Into the fire that shall never be quenched"
"Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched"

Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

How will the condemned first of all "see (gaze at intently, behold) " Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and consequently react by weeping and gnashing of teeth.........If they have been supposedly "annihilated"?

 

[Diakonos]

Unfortunately the bible never says the words "the first death" so we have to reverse engineer what "the second death" is to understand what the first death would be.


Before the second death happens, the unsaved dead will be resurrected back to mortal and physical life. When the bible mentions the second death, it is speaking of a literal death (of body, soul and spirit) with nothing left alive. That means first death is the normal death people experience, which also is a literal death except only the body dies.


The spiritual or figurative death Adam experienced is not related to the first and second deaths (the first literal death and the second literal death) ie: it should not be called the first death because that adds confusion since the first death that a mortal body experiences is not a spiritual death.

1. The first death is death of body ie: when someone dies.

2. The second death is the second time a mortal body dies, the soul and spirit will also die and the fire in the lake will consume all three ie: the entirety of a person.


Spiritual death is a figurative type of death so is not numbered. However this type of death can happen to someone who has not physically died the first death of the body.



First death: human body dies, soul and spirit remain alive.
Second death: human body, soul and spirit die, nothing remains alive.

I didn't ask what the 2 deaths are. I asked (another member)
"how do you differentiate which "death" is mentioned in a given Bible verse when it doesn't describe the spirit or separation?".
I asked them this because they do not believe that physical death is the first death. I am putting that logic to the test. But thank you for adding your thought to our conversation.

You will need to track my conversation with the other member to see why I asked that question. It is a systematic process

 

[ewq1938]

Flipsides of the same coin. Both are eternal. One is victory, joy, satisfaction and glory, the other is defeat, anguish, loss and eternal regret.

No, the other is eternal death and non-existence. Only the saved are promised eternal life.

 

[ewq1938]

Mark 9:43-48......3X Jesus says...
"Into the fire that shall never be quenched"
"Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched"

Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

How will the condemned first of all "see (gaze at intently, behold) " Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and consequently react by weeping and gnashing of teeth.........If they have been supposedly "annihilated"?

The gnashing of teeth happens at first but the fire will consume them quickly.

 

[Diakonos]

Blessings young man, thanks be to God for the wisdom you display in your study of the word.
Joy to you for the peaceful spirit you portray , it's so easy to see the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT in your responses!

Thank you for the kind words, fellow worker I am only seeking a "well done" from the Master.

““I have not departed from the command of His lips; I have treasured the words of His mouth
more than my necessary food.” (Job 23:12)...that I might not sin against [Him] (Ps 119:11)​

 

[Marilyn]

I believe in eternal torment, as probably most of us do here. But this guy lays out a pretty good argument for annihilation.

God made man with an eternal soul and gave man free will. It is up to the person to either want their own way or God`s way.

God`s creation `speaks` of a Creator and man`s conscience tells him of right and wrong.

`For since the creation of the world His eternal invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, they are without excuse.` (Rom. 1: 20)

Many people never heard of the gospel but chose to believe in God and do right. They will be judged by their works. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15) Others hear of Christ`s work on the cross for them and believing are saved from judgment.

Those who chose their own way will have that forever, but with out their physical body.

`Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.` (John 5: 28 & 29)

This judgment at the Great White Throne, (Rev. 20: 11 - 15) occurs AFTER DEATH has been destroyed. (1 Cor. 15: 26) Thus those condemned are eternal souls without the life of Christ. They are forever in their own mind and emotions they had on earth. This they chose and this they have - forever. They DID NOT want or desire God and His ways.