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Believer08
Guest
Premillennialism…is there anyone on this forum who does not believe in it? What scripture do you use to argue against it?
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Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Only coming one more time that includes a resurrection/rapture and that would eliminate a pre-Tribulation event
Only coming one more time that includes a resurrection/rapture and that would eliminate a pre-Tribulation event
I don't, I believe all this explained in Mathew 24 happens exactly when Jesus said it would.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
24 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the End of the Age
3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you dare not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away1 and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom swill be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christ's and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then tall the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, cat the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
No One Knows That Day and Hour
36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,2 but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding oat the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant,3 whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 xBlessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, yhe will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants4 and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come bon a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This is why I don't believe these events are future to us, because Jesus looked THEM in the eyes and said "TRULY I say to you THIS generation will not pass until ALL these things take place." Because Jesus said so, that's why.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
24 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the End of the Age
3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you dare not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away1 and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom swill be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christ's and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then tall the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, cat the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
No One Knows That Day and Hour
36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,2 but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding oat the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant,3 whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 xBlessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, yhe will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants4 and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come bon a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This is why I don't believe these events are future to us, because Jesus looked THEM in the eyes and said "TRULY I say to you THIS generation will not pass until ALL these things take place." Because Jesus said so, that's why.
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The operative words.... to you.
And how many times does Jesus state, YOU in this passage?
Yes He says "YOU" to THEM. Stop being silly. He was not talking to me or you in this passage.
"YOU" are taking it out of proper context.
I am not being silly, did you see the ribbon.
Of course He is saying YOU to them, that is the whole point, but many people like to work around what is plainly obvious.
Okay so He told them THEN that their generation will not pass until ALL those things come to pass and it's me that has it off? Not you suggesting "this generation" means thousands of years in the future? What you're saying is disconnected from your own words and reality. Again stop being silly.
I am agreeing with this.
This is why I don't believe these events are future to us, because Jesus looked THEM in the eyes and said "TRULY I say to you THIS generation will not pass until ALL these things take place." Because Jesus said so, that's why.
If this does not clarify I do not know what else I can state. sigh.
Are you okay?
In eschatology I am never locked in and im willing to a 180 on what I believe at the drop of a hat if new evidence is provided, I don't consider it a salvation issue but its extremely interesting to me which means I have gone through all the arguments for both sides and since you asked for arguments AGAINST premillenialism heres a few:
1. Premillennialism has too many final battles, instead of seeing the battle in Rev 16 and Rev 20 as the same final battle, they have two (or 3 if you count rev19 as a separate one) final battles.
2. The biggest argument is: THE RESURRECTION. The Bible teaches there is one resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and it happens at the same time on the last day (John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2, John 6:44 for example). In Premillennialism you have the last day resurrection with a thousand year gap between the righteous and the unrighteous.
3. The only place in the new testament that talks about the millennium is the highly symbolic book of Revelation. In all the other NT verses that are crystal clear like 2 Peter 3:10-13 it speaks about us waiting for a new heaven and a new earth, not a millennium!
4. The New Testament is clear that death dies when Jesus returns and you are either a sheep or a goat (Matthew 25:31-46, 1 Cor 15:51-58) and because of this there is no one in the flesh to populate the millennium. Jesus returns, the sheep are given eternal life and the goats are given eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46), no middle road.
5. Some (not all) premillennialists actually believe animal sacrifices will be restored in the millennium which goes against the entire book of Hebrews, this is just utter madness i dont know how people believe this, but its a massive red flag for anyone who respects the sacrifice of the son of God! Imagine that, the Lord gave His life just to return and watch a bunch of levites sacrifice animals all over again!
Theres a few, I suggest you google Sam Storms premillennialism or Kim Riddlebarger premillennialism. They have much better arguments in a better articulated way.
To be fair you should also look up some refutations to amillennialism. Cause reading things like this can cause you to think "Hey, this is so true!" But as the Bible teaches, once another man comes and examines, your case may not be as strong anymore.
Both positions have a lot of weaknesses. I am still premillennial because I believe those weaknesses are easier to be explained away than the amill ones. The amil's greatest weakness is how unreadable their interpretation of Rev 20:4 is. They must believe that satan is simultaneously bound from deceiving the nations and bound in the abyss, yet he is roaming across the earth like a lion seeking whom he may devour, deceiving the whole world (rev 12) and the entire world is in the power of the wicked one....... Thats too much for me to swallow! That and the fact that the first resurrection is talking about going to heaven when you die, hard pill to swlalow. IF you die a day before Jesus returns you reign 1 day only
LOL at your "are you okay", I am, but I'm not the one that can't understand the difference between Jesus telling them these things are going to happen in the next 40 years and thinking they happen post the year 2025. Also I just noticed you haven't even made your own case for what you think it means, just criticizing mine. Why is that? Are you okay, or still just silly? Why don't you make your case teacher? Instead of just starting trouble like you always do, trouble maker.
Yeah I don't even know what you think, you just chimed in for no reason it looks like. Why did you feel the need to correct what you agree with? Yeah you're confusing and it's worthless to try to talk to you at all. Have a good day.
Outside of the "timestamps" of "soon", are there any indicators in the book of Revelation that its past history? I think the best argument for your view would be not the "soon" statements but the "Five have fallen, one is... one is yet to come" etc. of John. Because a man's lifespan is only so long, which means the 8th king must of happened in the first or second century.
Btw: What about Revelation 20? Are you amillennialist or premillennialist or panmilennialist?
Please define the term as you are using it, and I may be able to answer your question.
There may be a few different types of Premillennialism.. Like a person who believe in the 1000 year reign of Jesus with His saints on earth does not nessecaraly believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.. So i guess one has to discuss each individuel aspect as a seperate topic to have a good interaction over this topic..
and what is "this"? ...
The proof text you offered doesn't necessarily mean that "this generation" must refer to "you" (although spoken in sequence of those that were "you," it is also spoken in relatively close proximity to the more detailed context of 'those' that see the things which take place as "signs of His coming." js
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Believer08
Guest
You and the other member believe th same way on this matter. You keep disagreeing with them when yuou both believe the same way. Youa re both wrong though. Jesus was speaking of "you" as the future people who have read the OD and will live to see all the events Jesus spoke of. That's why the 1st century people aren't the ones he is speaking about since they did not see all the events Jesus said one generation would see.
This also isn't an Amill vs. Premill issue anyway. This is more Preterist vs Futurist.