Were the Four Horsemen released from the 1st century?

[Nehemiah6]

...Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals...

This one little sentence refutes your position. Christ has already opened the seals. This reflects what is in Rev 1:1. 3: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Why do you think the Olivet Discourse came before the book of Revelation? The things mentioned in Matthew 24 are an exact match for those Four Horsemen.

 

[Jimbone]

This one little sentence refutes your position. Christ has already opened the seals. This reflects what is in Rev 1:1. 3: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Why do you think the Olivet Discourse came before the book of Revelation? The things mentioned in Matthew 24 are an exact match for those Four Horsemen.

It's because this pre-tribulation view is so deeply imbedded in the whole culture. You have such highly educated and respected people such as John McArthur, and resources such as Scofield bibles, that have stamped their opinion on His word for generations now, that the tradition is presented as "truth" when a closer inspection and study outside these popular sources, a look at other views and rereading the text without bringing a viewpoint to the text, to me, say something very different. I honestly couldn't believe how much better the truth fits the text. Perfectly. This in contrast to the charts, timelines, commentaries, and guru teachings it takes to be confused by the "pre-tribulation" view.
I has truly amazed me experiencing how God leads us through His Spirit, and how the closer you get to the truth the more it fits with and lines up with His word. He is AMAZIN!!!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This one little sentence refutes your position. Christ has already opened the seals. This reflects what is in Rev 1:1. 3: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Notice a couple of things in this text:



Rev1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him [/unto Jesus], to shew unto his servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev1:2
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep[/guard] those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


--Verse 1 says (in the Greek), "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [G1722 G5034 (preposition, NOUN)]"...
...whereas "shortLY" (as you have it ^ is an ADVERB instead);

this phrase is talking about the aspect that goes with "TO SHOW UNTO His servants..." (which aspect doesn't start until after the first three chapters) corresponding with where v.4:1 states, "AFTER THESE things... 'come up here and I WILL SHOW YOU what things must...'" (that is the first mention of "SHOW," besides 1:1's introduction saying so); THAT's the part "which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" (i.e. within a relatively brief amount of time, once it starts [aka the Tribulation Period - 7 yrs duration - So, "the SEALS"/"beginning of birth PANGS" are part of what John is "SHOWn" starting in v.4:1 and thus are a part of the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" (i.e. the "far-future" aspects of the Book)])



--Verse 3 indeed is talking about what John "bare RECORD of" (i.e. the contents of the entire Book of Rev), which means that: [Blessed is he that...] "readeth" and "hear" and "keep/guard" is what pertains to ITS [v.3's] OWN wording of: "for the time is at hand" (i.e. including the 7 letters in chpts 2-3 that indeed went to the churches ["what the Spirit saith unto the churchES"] STARTING IN THE FIRST CENTURY ); Verse 3's "for the time is at hand" is not reaching back to refer to the "TO SHOW UNTO" (corresponding with 4:1's "and I WILL SHOW YOU..." part, which part only started when John was told to "come up here and I will..." [John's change of location, from that point]);


--this means that 1:1's "TO SHOW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" correlates with 1:19c / 4:1 (the "[far-]future" aspects of the Book, i.e. the Trib yrs [7yrs]), not to mention, with 7:3;
Whereas "the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3; 1:19b) are NOT said (of THEM) that THEY are "things which must come to pass in quickness," BY CONTRAST ... and nowhere does it say that John is "SHOWn" this aspect [though yes, he "saw" things], it just says [or gives the instruction,] "WRITE";



--under v.1 see the Greek wording "G1722 G5034" (as pointed out at the top) - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/1/1/t_concif_1168001 (where "G1722 en " is not translated into the English... and where G5034 is a noun not the adverb "shortLY")

Why do you think the Olivet Discourse came before the book of Revelation? The things mentioned in Matthew 24 are an exact match for those Four Horsemen.

I agree that "the beginning of birth PANGS" exactly match the "SEALS" of Rev6 (because they ARE the same thing); Luke 21:12 informs us that these take place AFTER the "70ad events" of vv.12-24a,b (with pt c following on from those); but note, the "70ad events" spelled out in that section, which come "BEFORE ALL these [BEFORE ALL these beginning of birth pangs]" don't take place "immediately before" the BoBPs (the "unfolding" of ASPECTS OF v.24's items do, though!) IOW, the SEALS are included WITHIN the "7 year Tribulation Period" (so that, the "SEALS - TRUMPETS - VIALS" all take place WITHIN those "future" 7 years leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 [but FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]");

--ONE set of "SEE-then-FLEE" fits in the 70ad events ("BEFORE" the BoBPs), per Lk21:12,23,20;

--THE OTHER set of "SEE-then-FLEE" fits in the far-future TRIB yrs (AFTER the BoBPs, in Matt24!)

They are distinct, and have completely distinct [OPPOSITE] outcomes / ends (the former leads to "they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS"; the latter shows them being gathered "FROM THE FOUR WINDS" where they'd been judicially scattered, gathered "one by one" INTO ONE PLACE UPON THE EARTH...
...because Matt24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [and Isa27:9 corresponds with both Rom11:27 [re: Israel's "FUTURE"] and parts of Dan9:24...with its TIME-PROPHECY regarding "thy [Daniel's] people," and "thy [Daniel's] holy city [/Jerusalem--see Isa27:9,12-13's destination-location]"... at the time of the "GREAT" trumpet [also mentioned in Matt24:29-31... which is AFTER the tribulation... and is NOT a "RAPTURE / SNATCH"].)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ One other thing I could mention (to go with the above post):

Rev 1:13
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.


Rev 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;



Notice, in these early chapters, Jesus is said to be "walking IN THE MIDST OF the seven golden candlesticks" (which are the churches, it says).

But in Rev4-5 what do we see?
A change of location, to where He is now "standing"... IN THE MIDST OF the throne and of the 4 living creatures, and IN THE MIDST OF the elders (UP THERE), and note, of the already-awarded elders wearing the promised "stephanous / crowns" and "leukos himation" (promised in the "things WHICH ARE" section, chpts2-3... so a RELOCATION has happened!)

 

[Jimbone]

Notice a couple of things in this text:



Rev1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him [/unto Jesus], to shew unto his servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev1:2
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep[/guard] those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


--Verse 1 says (in the Greek), "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [G1722 G5034 (preposition, NOUN)]"...
...whereas "shortLY" (as you have it ^ is an ADVERB instead);

this phrase is talking about the aspect that goes with "TO SHOW UNTO His servants..." (which aspect doesn't start until after the first three chapters) corresponding with where v.4:1 states, "AFTER THESE things... 'come up here and I WILL SHOW YOU what things must...'" (that is the first mention of "SHOW," besides 1:1's introduction saying so); THAT's the part "which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" (i.e. within a relatively brief amount of time, once it starts [aka the Tribulation Period - 7 yrs duration - So, "the SEALS"/"beginning of birth PANGS" are part of what John is "SHOWn" starting in v.4:1 and thus are a part of the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" (i.e. the "far-future" aspects of the Book)])



--Verse 3 indeed is talking about what John "bare RECORD of" (i.e. the contents of the entire Book of Rev), which means that: [Blessed is he that...] "readeth" and "hear" and "keep/guard" is what pertains to ITS [v.3's] OWN wording of: "for the time is at hand" (i.e. including the 7 letters in chpts 2-3 that indeed went to the churches ["what the Spirit saith unto the churchES"] STARTING IN THE FIRST CENTURY ); Verse 3's "for the time is at hand" is not reaching back to refer to the "TO SHOW UNTO" (corresponding with 4:1's "and I WILL SHOW YOU..." part, which part only started when John was told to "come up here and I will..." [John's change of location, from that point]);


--this means that 1:1's "TO SHOW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" correlates with 1:19c / 4:1 (the "[far-]future" aspects of the Book, i.e. the Trib yrs [7yrs]), not to mention, with 7:3;
Whereas "the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3; 1:19b) are NOT said (of THEM) that THEY are "things which must come to pass in quickness," BY CONTRAST ... and nowhere does it say that John is "SHOWn" this aspect [though yes, he "saw" things], it just says [or gives the instruction,] "WRITE";



--under v.1 see the Greek wording "G1722 G5034" (as pointed out at the top) - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/1/1/t_concif_1168001 (where "G1722 en " is not translated into the English... and where G5034 is a noun not the adverb "shortLY")








I agree that "the beginning of birth PANGS" exactly match the "SEALS" of Rev6 (because they ARE the same thing); Luke 21:12 informs us that these take place AFTER the "70ad events" of vv.12-24a,b (with pt c following on from those); but note, the "70ad events" spelled out in that section, which come "BEFORE ALL these [BEFORE ALL these beginning of birth pangs]" don't take place "immediately before" the BoBPs (the "unfolding" of ASPECTS OF v.24's items do, though!) IOW, the SEALS are included WITHIN the "7 year Tribulation Period" (so that, the "SEALS - TRUMPETS - VIALS" all take place WITHIN those "future" 7 years leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 [but FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]");

--ONE set of "SEE-then-FLEE" fits in the 70ad events ("BEFORE" the BoBPs), per Lk21:12,23,20;

--THE OTHER set of "SEE-then-FLEE" fits in the far-future TRIB yrs (AFTER the BoBPs, in Matt24!)

They are distinct, and have completely distinct [OPPOSITE] outcomes / ends (the former leads to "they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS"; the latter shows them being gathered "FROM THE FOUR WINDS" where they'd been judicially scattered, gathered "one by one" INTO ONE PLACE UPON THE EARTH...
...because Matt24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [and Isa27:9 corresponds with both Rom11:27 [re: Israel's "FUTURE"] and parts of Dan9:24...with its TIME-PROPHECY regarding "thy [Daniel's] people," and "thy [Daniel's] holy city [/Jerusalem--see Isa27:9,12-13's destination-location]"... at the time of the "GREAT" trumpet [also mentioned in Matt24:29-31... which is AFTER the tribulation... and is NOT a "RAPTURE / SNATCH"].)

^ One other thing I could mention (to go with the above post):

Rev 1:13
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.


Rev 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;



Notice, in these early chapters, Jesus is said to be "walking IN THE MIDST OF the seven golden candlesticks" (which are the churches, it says).

But in Rev4-5 what do we see?
A change of location, to where He is now "standing"... IN THE MIDST OF the throne and of the 4 living creatures, and IN THE MIDST OF the elders (UP THERE), and note, of the already-awarded elders wearing the promised "stephanous / crowns" and "leukos himation" (promised in the "things WHICH ARE" section, chpts2-3... so a RELOCATION has happened!)

Can you not clearly see how much you have to ADD to the text to explain why it really means what you want it to. This is a perfect example of the blazing white hot problem with this view most seem to be blind to. You are so very clearly bringing to the text here, not pulling from it. All this to explain why "things which must shortly come to pass" really means thousands of years away and you'll never see it. I don't know how much more clearly this point could be made. Does this not throw up a red flag to you? That you have to swoop in and explain why the plain text doesn't really mean what the plain text says? That you have to explain so much to make it mean what you need it to?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Can you not clearly see how much you have to ADD to the text to explain why it really means what you want it to. This is a perfect example of the blazing white hot problem with this view most seem to be blind to. You are so very clearly bringing to the text here, not pulling from it. All this to explain why "things which must shortly come to pass" really means thousands of years away and you'll never see it. I don't know how much more clearly this point could be made. Does this not throw up a red flag to you? That you have to swoop in and explain why the plain text doesn't really mean what the plain text says? That you have to explain so much to make it mean what you need it to?

What I put not only agrees with the SEQUENCE between Matt22:7 [70ad events] and Matt22:8 ["THEN SAITH HE to his servants," AFTER 70ad! (Rev was written AFTER 70ad)]; but also...

... with the distinction between the wording between Matt24:36's [and parallels'] "but of that day and hour KNOWETH [PERFECT indicative; G1492 - eidō - 'understand/perceive' ] no man..." (not even Jesus at the time He spoke these words),
and that of His words in Acts 1:6-7 (AFTER His death/resurrection/first-ascension[-40-days-prior! ON "FIRSTFRUIT" Jn20:17]... when NOW HE PERFECTLY "KNEW" it!) in response to their specific question AS TO ITS "TIMING," where He answered, "it is not for you to KNOW [G1097 - ginōskō - 'experientially-know'] the times or seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power"... the REASON He could state the latter in this way IS BECAUSE "HE [NOW] KNEW" (having already ascended back ON FF/HIS RESURRECTION DAY 40-days earlier, Jn20:17) to where HE CAN NOW DECLARE TO THEM (standing before Him) that it is not for them to "experientially-know" because it's for a far-future time-period when this (pertaining in particular to their "TIMING" question) will be fulfilled (i.e. they will not be physically present on the earth in the "lead-up-years" immediately preceding His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [i.e. the 7 Trib yrs], it is not FOR THEM "TO EXPERIENTIALLY-KNOW [/experience]" this--He is declaring factually to THEM [about them], because HE NOW "KNOWS [G1492]" PERFECTLY... and then some 60+ years later, He disclosed FURTHER INFORMATION on THAT "Subject" in the Revelation [see v.1:1, and my previous posts' explanations of this verse+...]).




And, BTW, explaining texts and definitions and sequence-issues, as I see it, is not ADDING... it's "explaining" what might not be readily apparent to the reader (esp. in the English texts).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Let me ask you this question (so I can understand you):

Do you believe that the following passages all speak to the SAME events (I do):

--Matthew 24:4-8 "the beginning of birth pangs";

--Mark 13:5-8 "the beginning of birth pangs";

--Luke 21:8-11 DESCRIBING the SAME events as the above two passages, but not LABELED here in this Lk21 text as they are in the other two



Do you believe they are ALL (what He is calling) "the beginning of birth pangs" (same events, same time-frame), as I believe they are?

 

[Yahshua]

^ Let me ask you this question (so I can understand you):

Do you believe that the following passages all speak to the SAME events (I do):

--Matthew 24:4-8 "the beginning of birth pangs";

--Mark 13:5-8 "the beginning of birth pangs";

--Luke 21:8-11 DESCRIBING the SAME events as the above two passages, but not LABELED here in this Lk21 text as they are in the other two



Do you believe they are ALL (what He is calling) "the beginning of birth pangs" (same events, same time-frame), as I believe they are?

I think you'll appreciate this, TDW.

Take a step back and look at humanity from The Almighty's POV.

Psalms 90:4 & Peter 3:8 say that 1000 years of mankind is like 1 day to Him.

So, if 1000 years is like a day, 42 years is like 1 hour, and 7 years is only like 5 minutes to The Almighty!

Now consider that nations are prefigured as women. Messiah calls the seals/events "the beginning of birth pangs" (i.e., the woman is going into labor). If you believe that the birth pangs only begin at the start of a 7-year tribulation until the culmination/birth do you believe that is enough time for labor? A spiritual 5 minutes?

For a woman, the early days of labor can last 2-3 days.


Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.


Thus under the example we're given from the nature of women, the spiritual birth pangs Messiah prophesies need to last longer than 7 human years and should be around two millennia, conservatively, with those labor pains growing in intensity as time goes on. So if by all accounts we're approaching the culmination, the birth pangs (i.e., false Christs, wars, famine, pestilence/death) had to have begun during the 1st century and continued to grow in intensity since then.


Hosea 6:2
"in two days He shall revive us, in the third day we shall live in His sight".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I think you'll appreciate this, TDW.

Take a step back and look at humanity from The Almighty's POV.

Psalms 90:4 & Peter 3:8 say that 1000 years of mankind is like 1 day to Him.

So, if 1000 years is like a day, 42 years is like 1 hour, and 7 years is only like 5 minutes to The Almighty!

Now consider that nations are prefigured as women. Messiah calls the seals/events "the beginning of birth pangs" (i.e., the woman is going into labor). If you believe that the birth pangs only begin at the start of a 7-year tribulation until the culmination/birth do you believe that is enough time for labor? A spiritual 5 minutes?

For a woman, the early days of labor can last 2-3 days.


Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.


Thus under the example we're given from the nature of women, the spiritual birth pangs Messiah prophesies need to last longer than 7 human years and should be around two millennia, conservatively, with those labor pains growing in intensity as time goes on. So if by all accounts we're approaching the culmination, the birth pangs (i.e., false Christs, wars, famine, pestilence/death) had to have begun during the 1st century and continued to grow in intensity since then.


Hosea 6:2
"in two days He shall revive us, in the third day we shall live in His sight".

For a woman, the early days of labor can last 2-3 days.

[I meant to respond to this post back when you made it... my apologies!]

What I believe is meant by "the beginning of birth PANGS" is "ACTIVE LABOR" (not the "early labor" that can last for 2-3 days leading up to "ACTIVE labor")... so, no, I see this otherwise (the way I explained in my earlier posts [they ARE the "SEALS" and THOSE take place within the "IN QUICKNESS" time-period [i.e. TRIB], per Rev1:1, 1:19c / 4:1)



Thanks for the interaction, though.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Oh, and P.S.

... as for your Hosea 6:2 verse (I agree that refers to "2 thousand years [/after '2 days']"...

... but I see a DISTINCTION in this passage BETWEEN this reference to "AFTER TWO DAYS [/after 2000 yrs]" and the phrase in 5:15 saying, "IN THEIR AFFLICTION [LXX-G2347 - tribulation] they [Israel] WILL SEEK ME EARLY [/ EARNESTLY]".

IOW, "the beginning of birth PANGS" (i.e. SEALS) take place WITHIN what we call "the 7-yr TRIBULATION period" (aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-frame that Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] references, starting with the SEALS);





Paul also speaks to this, when he says (in 1Th5:1-3) that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (i.e. the first one Jesus had LISTED... that is, in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]" (i.e. the rider on the white horse WITH A 'BOW' ['BOW' often meaning 'DECEPTION'], i.e. SEAL #1); aka the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia [of the "man of sin"] is after / according to the working of Satan, with all..." (you know the rest of the verse; 2Th2:9a-10 [parallel Dan11:36a, speaking of the AC... his ARRIVAL point in the chronology (not the LATER "sitteth in the temple of God" MID-point of Trib point in the chronology)])