Thank you for the reply.
11pm here now and i have to call it a nite.
i will get back to you tomorrow.
Good nite
Were Nephilim (Gen 6) judged differently by God?
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Thank you for the reply.
11pm here now and i have to call it a nite.
i will get back to you tomorrow.
Good nite
I believe that is a good description of what was a popular idea about it.
Many things people believed were coming from what the Rabbis taught and they taught different things. Even the Pharisees and Saducees differed on these things.
Generally speaking Sheol in the OT seems to be referencing the place of the wicked dead. And it was the hell beneath warned about in the scriptures. I don't think anyone had a clear understanding of it and the scriptures don't give us much detail other than a warning.
So I can't say whether it was literally in the lower parts of the earth or whether that is a way of referencing the realm of the dead in popular opinion. I would probably say it was a spiritual realm if pressed. Not a literal place one can discover by digging.
Ask the trees they know that irregardless of what matter they are they will begin an seed,sprout live and die and along with the cars and computers and ships men have built eventually they will die,fall in the woods,rot and decay until they degrade unto their simple molecules and sift down between the sand into the depths of the earth. They know they will be carried down into the sand and that they will be resolved into their final elements then their atoms and finite particles. Eventually they will come to their atomic half life but who are you man who will partake in the resurrection while the others work their way down into the heat within the midst of the earth?
Your understanding of Sheol will influence how you understand Tartarus. Since that is another discussion, I'm fine with ending here on a point of agreement.
If you're interested in studying Sheol further, feel free to use some of my Biblical explorations on the subject here:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-really-good-news.203594/page-24#post-4757622
I believe that one of the reasons that the idea was developed that Sheol might include a place for the righteous is because it shows up in the OT was when Jacob said that if Benjamin were killed it would bring down his grey hairs to Sheol.
This was interpreted by some as the same as the grave. But others developed the idea of a compartments in Sheol for the righteous and the wicked. However, most likely Jacob is saying that he must have done something to deserve the place of the wicked dead if he lost both his sons and was referencing the place of the wicked dead and not just the grave.
In other words I don't think Jacob understood Sheol to be the grave nor did Jacob intend to communicate that he was going to go to the righteous compartment in Sheol. He was probably venting that he was going to "hell" because why else would he lose his favorite wife and his two favorite sons in such tragic ways? He must be cursed by God.
There was a belief that Sheol was divided by compartments for the wicked and the righteous divided by a handbreadth but these were teachings of select schools of rabbis with no biblical basis. They used to make up many things that were not in the bible.
My point is "what can we know from researching the word in the OT alone?"
I got this from reading about this word Sheol in the past.
I was confused by all these words and how people were teaching so many different things about Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, etc..
I could be wrong. But so far I am leaning toward Sheol being the same as how most of us understand "Hell". A place of punishment for the wicked dead. I am not on board with the rabbinical teachings about Sheol. As I am usually not on board with most rabbinical teachings that Christians are falling for by watching YouTube videos today.
And following the KJV scholars on communicating Hell as that word that most English speakers understand I think we are probably communicating the intended message when we use that word.
Proverbs 15:24 “The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.”
This is probably one of the best verses in the OT on the subject.
It was the scriptural understanding on the subject that the OT communicated and they really were not given a lot but enough to warn them that there was a place of torment awaiting the wicked dead. This is why Jesus said in his parable that those 5 brothers of the rich man could read Moses and the Prophets to be warned about "this place of torment."
I think if one reads all of the references in Moses and the Prophets on this place they come away with a scriptural understanding that it is a place of torment for the wicked, and they don't get the idea that it is a place for both the wicked and the righteous. This idea is presented by other teachings outside of the scriptures such as Rabbinical writings.
That is my understanding so far, but I am still reading and learning.
Job, David, and others mentioned going to Sheol. It was generally and simply understood as the unseen realm of the dead
PS~ Best wishes with your studies!
J
joecoten
Guest
I've learned that if you want to learn the truth about the Nephilim, you're going to have to read "The Book Of The Watchers," which is found in 1 Enoch.
Yes they mention it but when you read each of the instances it almost always has a negative connotation. Looking up each reference and thinking about what they were saying is what lead me to the conclusion that Sheol is usually talking about the place for the wicked dead and something that the righteous hope to be delivered from. Except when the writer seems to be depressed and venting.Job, David, and others mentioned going to Sheol. It was generally and simply understood as the unseen realm of the dead
PS~ Best wishes with your studies!
J
joecoten
Guest
So in this journey to search out the intended meaning of Sheol in the OT what I discovered is that there was a point in time when the Rabbis introduced ideas about the compartments in Sheol. This was not something that was originally thought, taught or discussed until a point in history long after these references were written. What we have to do is extract those later cultural ideas out from what they thought at the time these verses were written. It is not fair to put into the minds of Job or David or others something that was not taught for the first time thousands of years later.Job, David, and others mentioned going to Sheol. It was generally and simply understood as the unseen realm of the dead
PS~ Best wishes with your studies!
What they thought at the time of Christ was not what they thought at the time of David, or Job, or Jacob. That is important in ascertaining authorial intent.
J
joecoten
Guest
Good afternoon from the East.
Before we delve into Scripture, who do yo think appeared to Daniel in chapter 10?
Daniel 10:4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
Good morning from the west
Daniel 10:4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
Good morning from the west
Do think this is speaking of the Lord?
It could be a Theophany, yes. Two others appeared with Him also...
The two others were on the river banks, while the One Who looked
like a man appears to have been hovering above the water:
The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river... (Daniel 12:7)
J
joecoten
Guest
It was a Saturday evening in late summer, 1974. I was 15. My best friend Neil and I had spent the day fishing Lake Simcoe with his father. We were at his home and decided that he would come spend the night at my place. I called my mother and asked her if Neil could stay over.
She agreed but said, "I want you here by 9:30." I said, "Yes Mom." She said, "You haven't been coming home on time lately. I want you to promise me that you'll be here on time." I loved my mother...she was a sweet woman. I said, "Yes, Mom, I promise."
Neil and I left his place at 9:10 for the 15 minute walk to my place. We lived in the suburbs just outside Toronto. It was dark. As we walked down the main road, we neared the bridge that crossed a small creek. We both heard an electrical-sounding buzzing noise and looked up the creek, to our left.
About a hundred yards up and on the other side of the creek was what looked like a large blacklight, and this was where the sound was coming from. Intrigued, we decided to go investigate. We headed up the grassy area between the backyards and the creek.
We went down the little hill, carefully picked our way across the creek, climbed the far hill, and soon arrived to about 6 feet from the light. It was about 7 or so feet high and perhaps 3 feet wide. As it looked like it might burn us if we got too close to it, we just stood there looking at it.
A loud buzzing noise was coming from up above us. As we stood looking, the color of the light changed from purple to orange, though it looked like the same kind of light. You could see that the light rays shone out about a foot. I was straining my eyes to perceive what I was looking at.
And then I saw it.
Overwhelmed with terror, I turned to my left to run away. As I did, my eyes caught Neil's, as he turned to his right. I could see the fear in his eyes that I felt. We ran through the creek, and back to the street. We stopped and looked back. The light was still in the same place, though it had turned back to purple.
We asked each other, "What did you see?" I wouldn't tell him, as I could hardly believe what I'd seen and wanted independent confirmation. That was why he wouldn't tell me either. We argued a bit and then he relented and told me. He saw a human-like being that was glowing like it was made out of pure light energy, or perhaps fire. It looked us in the eyes. It was exactly what I'd seen.
Then he said that he wanted to go back to it. I thought he was insane and did all I could to talk him out of it, but to no avail. He headed back, and so did I, trying to talk him out of it the whole way. We arrived at the same place we were before, and the light was glowing, with the loud buzzing noise coming from perhaps 20 feet up in the sky and a little in front of us.
And then it just disappeared, along with the noise. I said, "Good, it's gone. Let's get out of here." We left and walked to my place. We came in the side door. My mother came out to the kitchen. I said, "Hi, Mom!" She started yelling at me.
"You promised me that you'd be here by 9:30!" I said, "But Mom, I am!" She stood back so I could see the clock on the wall and said, "What does that say?" I looked at the clock and it was nearly 10:35! I protested a bit more, but she got even angrier, so I stopped and we went downstairs. We couldn't figure out why it was so late.
Late one night, about 2 1/2 years later, I was walking home after an evening of playing euchre at a friend's. I saw the being again, this time it was on the far side of the schoolyard that my parents' backyard joined. This time I stayed far from it and ran home, terrified. I've never seen this being again.
It was only years later that I heard about alien abductions. I now think that this may have been a fallen angel. Neither my friend nor I have any memory of the missing hour.
She agreed but said, "I want you here by 9:30." I said, "Yes Mom." She said, "You haven't been coming home on time lately. I want you to promise me that you'll be here on time." I loved my mother...she was a sweet woman. I said, "Yes, Mom, I promise."
Neil and I left his place at 9:10 for the 15 minute walk to my place. We lived in the suburbs just outside Toronto. It was dark. As we walked down the main road, we neared the bridge that crossed a small creek. We both heard an electrical-sounding buzzing noise and looked up the creek, to our left.
About a hundred yards up and on the other side of the creek was what looked like a large blacklight, and this was where the sound was coming from. Intrigued, we decided to go investigate. We headed up the grassy area between the backyards and the creek.
We went down the little hill, carefully picked our way across the creek, climbed the far hill, and soon arrived to about 6 feet from the light. It was about 7 or so feet high and perhaps 3 feet wide. As it looked like it might burn us if we got too close to it, we just stood there looking at it.
A loud buzzing noise was coming from up above us. As we stood looking, the color of the light changed from purple to orange, though it looked like the same kind of light. You could see that the light rays shone out about a foot. I was straining my eyes to perceive what I was looking at.
And then I saw it.
Overwhelmed with terror, I turned to my left to run away. As I did, my eyes caught Neil's, as he turned to his right. I could see the fear in his eyes that I felt. We ran through the creek, and back to the street. We stopped and looked back. The light was still in the same place, though it had turned back to purple.
We asked each other, "What did you see?" I wouldn't tell him, as I could hardly believe what I'd seen and wanted independent confirmation. That was why he wouldn't tell me either. We argued a bit and then he relented and told me. He saw a human-like being that was glowing like it was made out of pure light energy, or perhaps fire. It looked us in the eyes. It was exactly what I'd seen.
Then he said that he wanted to go back to it. I thought he was insane and did all I could to talk him out of it, but to no avail. He headed back, and so did I, trying to talk him out of it the whole way. We arrived at the same place we were before, and the light was glowing, with the loud buzzing noise coming from perhaps 20 feet up in the sky and a little in front of us.
And then it just disappeared, along with the noise. I said, "Good, it's gone. Let's get out of here." We left and walked to my place. We came in the side door. My mother came out to the kitchen. I said, "Hi, Mom!" She started yelling at me.
"You promised me that you'd be here by 9:30!" I said, "But Mom, I am!" She stood back so I could see the clock on the wall and said, "What does that say?" I looked at the clock and it was nearly 10:35! I protested a bit more, but she got even angrier, so I stopped and we went downstairs. We couldn't figure out why it was so late.
Late one night, about 2 1/2 years later, I was walking home after an evening of playing euchre at a friend's. I saw the being again, this time it was on the far side of the schoolyard that my parents' backyard joined. This time I stayed far from it and ran home, terrified. I've never seen this being again.
It was only years later that I heard about alien abductions. I now think that this may have been a fallen angel. Neither my friend nor I have any memory of the missing hour.