Were Adam and Eve the first two people created in the beginning of time?

[NightTwister]

Not sure how it undermines the Holy Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit make you without error? No. The Spirit is a helper, not a doer. Are we to say that all versions are inspired by God? You mentioned yourself the possibility of Bible scholars being atheists. Is there not the same possibility for translators being atheist?

Are there things I don’t like about the Bible? Yes of course there are. It’s not what it says though. I don’t like that there are hundreds of versions just in the English. I don’t like that we don’t know who wrote most of the books. I don’t like that a lot of it is unclear enough to be left up to our interpretation. I don’t like how some parts are taken literally by some and hypothetically by others. I don’t like how some passages were changed, added later, or taken out. I don’t like how we just assign authors to books when we don’t know who wrote them.

It’s not that God is too small but rather the Bible is too small for God. We can never understand Him, and the fact this forum exists proves that. If there was one copy of the Bible written in a language that all could read and come to the same conclusion on, there would be no need to discuss it.

If you can give the English version that is the one correct version being they can’t all be correct, I would love to hear why it is?

Saying there are minor non-doctrinal errors in translations is not the same as saying the originals had errors and were based on oral tradition instead of direct inspiration by the Holy Spirit. God not only inspired his Word, but has protected it through the years.
Using the term "oral tradition" has a specific meaning and compares Christianity equally with other religions such as Islam or Hindu.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Saying there are minor non-doctrinal errors in translations is not the same as saying the originals had errors and were based on oral tradition instead of direct inspiration by the Holy Spirit. God not only inspired his Word, but has protected it through the years.
Using the term "oral tradition" has a specific meaning and compares Christianity equally with other religions such as Islam or Hindu.

What I mean is from Adam to Moses things were passed down orally. From Jesus til the time the books of the new testament were written, things were passed down orally. Things being passed down orally can still be inspired by the Holy Spirit. The words don’t have to be written down. The original text could’ve been 100% inerrant but the fact is that we do not have the original texts of any other books. I see it as more evidence is better, therefore I do not restrict myself to only the 66 books of the Protestant Bible or only one version of the English Bible. I see things today such as music inspired by the Holy Spirit. I’m not gonna say that the Ethiopians are wrong for having 81 or 88 books. I can’t say that His Spirit doesn’t dwell within them. By their fruit it appears that He does.

All religions were passed down orally until writing was invented. Not sure how I was comparing Christianity to Hinduism or Islam. Hinduism and Islam both have scriptures. Hinduism has scriptures that date back to possibly 1500bc. Although being pantheistic and super fluid, they continue to add more gods. Islam also has scripture although the quran goes against itself and can easily be seen as being written by men from the flesh with pride issues. It’s not much different than the Book of Mormon piggy backing off another religion.

 

[NightTwister]

What I mean is from Adam to Moses things were passed down orally. From Jesus til the time the books of the new testament were written, things were passed down orally. Things being passed down orally can still be inspired by the Holy Spirit. The words don’t have to be written down. The original text could’ve been 100% inerrant but the fact is that we do not have the original texts of any other books. I see it as more evidence is better, therefore I do not restrict myself to only the 66 books of the Protestant Bible or only one version of the English Bible. I see things today such as music inspired by the Holy Spirit. I’m not gonna say that the Ethiopians are wrong for having 81 or 88 books. I can’t say that His Spirit doesn’t dwell within them. By their fruit it appears that He does.

All religions were passed down orally until writing was invented. Not sure how I was comparing Christianity to Hinduism or Islam. Hinduism and Islam both have scriptures. Hinduism has scriptures that date back to possibly 1500bc. Although being pantheistic and super fluid, they continue to add more gods. Islam also has scripture although the quran goes against itself and can easily be seen as being written by men from the flesh with pride issues. It’s not much different than the Book of Mormon piggy backing off another religion.

So your view of scripture is either heterodox or heretical, depending on how far you take it. It's simply not what most Christians believe.

 

[Icant]

There's a big difference between adding full stops, commas, punctuation marks, verses, chapters - and moving sections of text around.

And you don't with thousands of clay tablets they could not make a mistake in the order they were entered in the text by men who believed in their narrative?

Why does Genesis 1: follow Genesis 1:1?
Genesis 1:2 starts with a disjunction conjunction not a conjunction.

On the other hand Genesis 2:4 claims to be the beginning of the History of the Day which was a period of light according to the Biblical definition of Day. Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. So the only play Genesis 2:4 can go is behind Genesis 2:4.

What verse would you put Genesis 2:4 behind?

You have a problem as you believe what you have been taught, not what Moses wrote.

Moses wrote about a creation event that took place in one light period of undetermined duration as there was no periods of darkness as darkness had not been created at that point in duration.

He also wrote a period in which there was a lot of work to do on the Universe to make it inhabitable as it was in a mess at Genesis 1:2.

Jeremiah 4:23
3I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jeremiah described the heavens and the earth just like it existed at Genesis 1:2 and it was that way because of Gods fierce anger. There was no man and the birds had fled.

Did God create the heavens and earth in the mess found at Genesis 1:2?

According to Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

He didn't.

Genesis 1:1 Is a declarative statement of completed action according to the verb translated created. Hebrew verbs are either completed action or ongoing action. There is no tenses as we have in English.

Icant

 

[Just_A__Follower]

So your view of scripture is either heterodox or heretical, depending on how far you take it. It's simply not what most Christians believe.

Heterodox- sure if that’s the label you want to put on me. I definitely believe differently than most Christians. But most Christian’s believe differently from each other which is why we have so many denominations and most of them calling the others wrong. Just further establishes the fact that scripture can be very unclear and there’s no one to decide what is and isn’t scripture besides humans. I especially love how words have been invented to describe other that don’t hold the same opinions as others. All Christians could be described as heterodox. Catholics make up the majority so does that make all Protestants heterodox? It’s the whole “I’m right, you’re wrong” thing that keeps the church separated. I just prefer to believe that none are completely right including me. Unless time travel is invented we will never know while on this earth. We can only, no matter our beliefs, walk by faith. We either believe in the unknown or believe in nothing which is impossible.

 

[NightTwister]

Heterodox- sure if that’s the label you want to put on me. I definitely believe differently than most Christians. But most Christian’s believe differently from each other which is why we have so many denominations and most of them calling the others wrong. Just further establishes the fact that scripture can be very unclear and there’s no one to decide what is and isn’t scripture besides humans. I especially love how words have been invented to describe other that don’t hold the same opinions as others. All Christians could be described as heterodox. Catholics make up the majority so does that make all Protestants heterodox? It’s the whole “I’m right, you’re wrong” thing that keeps the church separated. I just prefer to believe that none are completely right including me. Unless time travel is invented we will never know while on this earth. We can only, no matter our beliefs, walk by faith. We either believe in the unknown or believe in nothing which is impossible.

Grade and Peace

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Grade and Peace

Grace and peace to you too brother. If you decide you would like to share what the correct translation is and the evidence you have for it, I would be more than happy to listen. I try to never turn down an opportunity to learn.

 

[Icant]

There's a big difference between adding full stops, commas, punctuation marks, verses, chapters - and moving sections of text around.

Explain the difference.

If you had a bunch of clay tablets that had a bunch of letters on them with no full stops, commas, punctuation marks, verses, chapters and no page numbers how would you know which tablet went where?

Example:
בראשיתבראאלהיםאתהשמיםואתהארץ׃והארץהיתהתהוובהווחשךעלפניתהוםורוחאלהיםמרחפתעלפניהמים׃

בראשיתבראאלהיםאתהשמיםואתהארץ׃אלהתולדותהשמיםהארץבהבראםביוםעשותיהוהאלהיםארץושמים׃

Which one of those would be the correct order?

Icant

 

[Icant]

While you may have a point regarding the original written text, there are only so many possible ways to “break up” the text without it becoming meaningless. I suggest you propose an alternative to the traditional understanding instead of merely suggesting there is one.

Hi Dino,
But there is only one way it makes sense without creating contradictions.
To read it like the translations we have today puts all kind of contradictions.
Most people believe that the man kind formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 and 1:27 are the same man.
The mankind created in Genesis 1:27 was never placed in a garden.
The mankind created in Genesis2:7 was placed in a Garden.
The mankind created in Genesis 1:27 was never forbidden from eating any fruit. Told he could eat from all fruit bearing trees.
The mankind formed in Genesis2:7 was forbiden from eating fruit from a specific tree.
The mankind created in Genesis 1:27 was created male and female at the same time.
The mankind created in Genesis2:7 was formed
The mankind formed in Genesis2:7 named all the animals before the woman was formed from a part of him.

That is just a few and there is many more contradictions if they are the same man.

The problem is everybody knows what he/she believes and it makes no difference what the text says.

Icant

 

[Dino246]

Hi Dino,
But there is only one way it makes sense without creating contradictions.
To read it like the translations we have today puts all kind of contradictions.
Most people believe that the man kind formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 and 1:27 are the same man.
The mankind created in Genesis 1:27 was never placed in a garden.
The mankind created in Genesis2:7 was placed in a Garden.
The mankind created in Genesis 1:27 was never forbidden from eating any fruit. Told he could eat from all fruit bearing trees.
The mankind formed in Genesis2:7 was forbiden from eating fruit from a specific tree.
The mankind created in Genesis 1:27 was created male and female at the same time.
The mankind created in Genesis2:7 was formed
The mankind formed in Genesis2:7 named all the animals before the woman was formed from a part of him.

That is just a few and there is many more contradictions if they are the same man.

The problem is everybody knows what he/she believes and it makes no difference what the text says.

Icant

There are no contradictions, just different degrees of detail. It’s the same with the gospel accounts of the empty tomb.

 

[PaulThomson]

Explain the difference.

If you had a bunch of clay tablets that had a bunch of letters on them with no full stops, commas, punctuation marks, verses, chapters and no page numbers how would you know which tablet went where?

Example:
בראשיתבראאלהיםאתהשמיםואתהארץ׃והארץהיתהתהוובהווחשךעלפניתהוםורוחאלהיםמרחפתעלפניהמים׃

בראשיתבראאלהיםאתהשמיםואתהארץ׃אלהתולדותהשמיםהארץבהבראםביוםעשותיהוהאלהיםארץושמים׃

Which one of those would be the correct order?

Icant

Where are these clay tablets? Where is the evidence for these clay tablets? There is as little evidence that Moses wrote on clay tablets as there is that Joseph Smith read the Book of Mormon off gold tablets. None.

 

[Icant]

Where are these clay tablets? Where is the evidence for these clay tablets? There is as little evidence that Moses wrote on clay tablets as there is that Joseph Smith read the Book of Mormon off gold tablets. None.

If you had a book that had 304,901 words in it that was unbound, just loose pages how would you know what order to put the pages in.

The children of Israel had just spent 400 yeas making bricks for the Pharoh's in Egypt so they would not have had any problem making tablets for Moses to write on. Moses was educated in Pharoh's house so he would not have had a problem writing, and he had 40 years to write.

And no those tablets do not exist today but copies of those tablets do exist today. But only because scribes copied them and that is wherein the problems lies, humans have beliefs and they affect their thinking.

Icant

 

[PaulThomson]

If you had a book that had 304,901 words in it that was unbound, just loose pages how would you know what order to put the pages in.

The children of Israel had just spent 400 yeas making bricks for the Pharoh's in Egypt so they would not have had any problem making tablets for Moses to write on. Moses was educated in Pharoh's house so he would not have had a problem writing, and he had 40 years to write.

And no those tablets do not exist today but copies of those tablets do exist today. But only because scribes copied them and that is wherein the problems lies, humans have beliefs and they affect their thinking.

Icant

And the Egyptians had papyrus scrolls and ink, which Moses had access to and experience with and could take with him out of Egypt.

 

[4urenlightment]

According to the bible or story, the answer is no. We must first understand that the first bible was the Hebrew bible and all bibles are translation from this original text. Sometimes we need to go back to truly understand what the writers intended to say. In Hebrew there are three words that look very similar and therefore confused in their translations. ‘adaaam means mankind; more than one person. Haa-‘adaam (with article) means the man, and ‘eth haa-‘adaam (with article and particle) is a specific person named Adam.

Genesis 1
[SUP]26[/SUP] And God said, Let us make man (‘adaam) in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Here it’s talking about the creation of mankind. Note the underline word! It indicates more than one!
[SUP]27[/SUP] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Here is indicated that males and females were created at the same time. So in the beginning of time God created a population of man and women.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

-Notice in this verse, God says to be fruitful and multiply. If he hadn’t created Eve yet, how can any man multiply? As we now know, there was a population of women now in existence. We can also understand from this passage that the men God created where to have domain over the fish of the sea (fishermen) and over the fowl of the air, and every living thing… (hunters)

Genesis 2
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the Lord God formed man (‘eth haa-‘adaam) of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

-With only fisherman and hunters, there was no one to till the ground (farmers) so God formed Adam. Notice that he wasn’t created! but rather formed. As stated again in verse 8.
This was the purpose of the creation of Adam. Then God gives him a wife that would suit him and Eve came into existence. They first had Cain and Abel [later Seth (Gen 4:25) and many more (Gen 5:4)]. And as we all know the story, Cain murders Abel and God punishes him.

Genesis 4
[SUP]12 [/SUP]When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
A fugitive and a vagabond shalt though be is God kicking him out from Eden.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

-In verse 14, Cain is afraid to be killed if someone finds him. Notice again the underline words! In verse 15 the lord refers to people with whosoever, again supporting the existence of other people!
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

-Cain went to Nod and got married with a woman from there. Again supporting the existence of other people and even women!! Throughout the rest of the chapter, it lists generations. Again if people look past Cain’s wife as simply something you can’t question and the bible doesn’t give answers to everything, then where did Enoch find his wife? And the following people. Again, it’s because there were many men and women on earth!

It says after Seth was born, Adam had more children. But the only reason the Bible focused on Cain and Abel, it's because Abel was the only one out of Adam's children that God accepted his offering. And it focused on Cain is because he was the only one out of Adam's children that was jealous and he murdered Abel.

just imagine how many kids Adam had after eating the forbidden fruit. That fruit made Adam to focus on every detail of Eve's body.
Fig leaves can't cover everything.
But they didn't sewed fig leaves together. They hid from God inside of a fig tree which their branches drapes over onto the ground like curtains, like a weeping willow tree


Genesis 5:4
After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.

Genesis 3:7
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

like this fig tree was pruned so we can see its bark. But most wild fig tree branches stretch all the way to the ground covering the bark that look as if it's a big umbrella that it looks from the outside like a bush instead of a tree. That you can walk inside of the tree branches, that it looks like you've walked into a tent.

 

[Dino246]

Fig leaves can't cover everything.
But they didn't sewed fig leaves together. They hid from God inside of a fig tree which their branches drapes over onto the ground like curtains, like a weeping willow tree

Perhaps you need to read the text again…

“And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭7‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/gen.3.7.KJV

Claiming something that clearly and directly contradicts Scripture is generally a bad idea.

 

[Icant]

And the Egyptians had papyrus scrolls and ink, which Moses had access to and experience with and could take with him out of Egypt.

Papyrus was very expensive. Ink was Soot mixed with gum and water. Leather would not have lasted very long in the conditions in the desert and would have required frequent copying. Anything Moses wrote on would have to be copied over and over. So, what we have today is copies of copies with personal beliefs sprinkled into the translations we have to day. Which is the reason we were instructed to study the scriptures.

Icant

 

[PaulThomson]

Papyrus was very expensive. Ink was Soot mixed with gum and water. Leather would not have lasted very long in the conditions in the desert and would have required frequent copying. Anything Moses wrote on would have to be copied over and over. So, what we have today is copies of copies with personal beliefs sprinkled into the translations we have to day. Which is the reason we were instructed to study the scriptures.

Icant

How did the Qumran manuscripts survive. You don't think Moses and the priest knew how to keep papyrus scrolls in clay jars?

 

[PaulThomson]

How did the Qumran manuscripts survive. You don't think Moses and the priest knew how to keep papyrus scrolls in clay jars?

Besides, the Egyptians gave the Hebrews lots of treasure and goods when they left Egypt. Why would they not take papyrus to write on? And if the Israelites shoes did not wear out, couldn't God also likewise preserve papyrus scrolls?