water baptism in Jesus' Name.

[Nehemiah6]

Hence, your quote is wrong. It was in the sight of God that Abraham was justified

How can my quote be "wrong"? You have no clue about justification by grace through faith apart from works of any kind. And that was in Genesis 15. There is nothing in Genesis 22 about justification. So you are simply arguing for the sake of argument. Enough said.

 

[Lamar]

How can my quote be "wrong"? You have no clue about justification by grace through faith apart from works of any kind. And that was in Genesis 15. There is nothing in Genesis 22 about justification. So you are simply arguing for the sake of argument. Enough said.

This is the text:
(Genesis 15:6) Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

This is your quote:
"So Abraham was justified by faith IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, but in the eyes of men he was justified when he placed Isaac on the altar"

Where in the text does it say "in the eyes of men he was justified when he placed Isaac on the altar"?

This is the text:
(Genesis 22:12) Then he said, “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.”

Hence:
What did God see in Abraham: since you have not withheld your only son from me.”
When did God know and see the faith of Abraham: For now I know that you fear God

So:
It was not (as you have stated) in the eyes of men but in the eyes of God that Abraham proved himself worthy of the credit that God granted him.

 

[Lamar]

You are inserting your bias about baptism here which does not align with salvation through belief/faith. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Being buried and raised up with Him is merely signified in the waters of baptism, yet is procured through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead.

In regard to works done in righteousness, I gave you an example of good works in general in Ephesians 2:10. Do you not know what good works are? Is clothing and feeding the poor a good work? Is that also not a work done in righteousness? Only those who are born of God perform genuine works of righteousness because they are righteous.

In 1 John 3:7-10, we read, Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister. Another example.

Jesus told John the Baptist to baptize Him in order to fulfill all righteousness. (Matthew 3:13-15) Baptism is a work done in righteousness (unless you are an unbeliever). Now read Titus 3:5 in regard to works of righteousness.

You:
You are inserting your bias about baptism here which does not align with salvation through belief/faith. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

I am inserting nothing or even need to in any of your verses. All of these verses are true and do not need to be "aligned" with your faith alone regeneration theology. They are all written in the general, hence they can not be used to negate more detailed verses.

You:
Being buried and raised up with Him is merely signified in the waters of baptism, yet is procured through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead.

Here is the text:
(Col 2:12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

"having been buried with Him in baptism" this verbiage is used as a reference of an event or moment leading to "being raised up".
Not "merely a sign". Baptism is that event or moment.

You:
In regard to works done in righteousness, I gave you an example of good works in general in Ephesians 2:10.

Here is the text:
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As you can see there are no examples.

You:
Do you not know what good works are? Is clothing and feeding the poor a good work? Is that also not a work done in righteousness? Only those who are born of God perform genuine works of righteousness because they are righteous.

Does this apply to people like Cornelius? He was devout, worshipped the true God and gave to the poor. Did these things make him righteous? Were they "done in righteousness"?

You:
Jesus told John the Baptist to baptize Him in order to fulfill all righteousness. (Matthew 3:13-15) Baptism is a work done in righteousness (unless you are an unbeliever).

This is a great verse. Jesus Himself understood the meaning of "in order to".

 

[Ted01]

Baptism in this verse is being used as a point in time of an event. That event is our being "raised up".

I thoroughly disagree with this opinion.
Paul is talking about the power of/in Jesus Christ, not the power of/in baptism in this portion of Scripture. Infact, Paul is talking against "religiosity" (as usual) and is encouraging his audience to remain in the Faith of the Gospel. He says:

4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. & 5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. 6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

The mention of baptism in this Scripture is not something to build a doctrine about baptism. And it is part of a "picture" of the believer's position in Christ's finished work.

 

[mailmandan]

I am inserting nothing or even need to in any of your verses. All of these verses are true and do not need to be "aligned" with your faith alone regeneration theology. They are all written in the general, hence they can not be used to negate more detailed verses.

Scripture must harmonize with Scripture or else we have a contradiction and there are no contradictions in God's Word. Your salvation by water baptism theory does not align with salvation through faith in Christ alone (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9) so your water gospel must be rejected.

Here is the text:

(Col 2:12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

"having been buried with Him in baptism" this verbiage is used as a reference of an event or moment leading to "being raised up".
Not "merely a sign". Baptism is that event or moment.

False. Before mentioning baptism in Romans chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." (Colossians 2:12) Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

As you can see there are no examples.

Wow! You actually need examples of good works? Feeding and clothing the poor is a good work, which falls under loving your neighbor as yourself. (Mark 12:31) In 1 Thessalonians 5:14-18, we read - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. These good works are God's will for us in Christ Jesus. Do you need further examples?

Does this apply to people like Cornelius? He was devout, worshipped the true God and gave to the poor. Did these things make him righteous? Were they "done in righteousness"?

Those things in of themselves did not make Cornelius righteous. See (Acts 10:43-47; 11:13-14)

This is a great verse. Jesus Himself understood the meaning of "in order to".

In order to what? This was a necessary part of the righteousness that Christ secured for believers. We are not righteous "in of ourselves." (Romans 4:5-6)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Your salvation by water baptism theory does not align with salvation through faith in Christ alone (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9) so your water gospel must be rejected.

Absolutely. This is another false gospel. But people would rather cling to their false gospels rather embrace the truth. Salvation (justification) is always by grace through faith + NOTHING.

 

[Lamar]

Absolutely. This is another false gospel. But people would rather cling to their false gospels rather embrace the truth. Salvation (justification) is always by grace through faith + NOTHING

You are claiming a definitive.
Show me the verse, just one.
Can you? If not I suggest your clinging to faith alone regeneration theology is the true false gospel.

 

[WayneKCobb]

Hi mailman,

I read through your thoughts concerning faith to Lamar.

I would like to ask you. A couple of questions concerning two things: Hope and Faith.

We gain. A hope on the basis of knowledge we have received. and we trust In the knowledge, we have received and therefore we have a hope. Many times people have a hope on going on a vacation. But things happen and their hope is never realized. Faith Has Trust. In the knowledge one has received, just like hope. Faith though takes it another step further which is illustrated by our faith?

If you will look closely At the passage about faith in James chapter 2, It shows two different levels of faith. One level is faith without works and that faith is dead. As one reads about Abraham he did not receive a perfected faith until he went to sacrifice his son. when it says a perfected faith, it implies that there is an unperfected faith. This Faith as well Illustrated back in Genesis 15 where God credited Abraham's Faith as righteousness. This is the type of faith that God wants us to have and are willing to act upon it when there is something for us to do. This is what Abraham did.

Both Hope and Faith are well Illustrated here in Romans.

Romans 4:18-22 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19 - Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20 - yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 - and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 - Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Abraham trusted in God's promise concerning his descendants. Abraham believed that promise and had relations with his wife Sarah. Both his Hope and Faith were strong. Abraham was a hundred percent assured that God would keep his promise and it was credited to Abraham as righteousness. Then as we see in James chapter 2 that Abraham received a perfected faith when he did what God had told him to do in going to sacrifice his son Isaac.

if you will look back and Colossians 2:11 through 13 you will see in verse 12 that it wasn't Abraham's faith in his baptism but faith in God as to his promises as to what he would receive when he was baptized. His faith was not in his baptism but his faith was in God's promises of what would happen when he was baptized.

When you are talking about works of righteousness being the same as works of faith, you are wrong! These types of works are well described in Ephesians chapter 2 and specifically talked about in verse 8 and 9. If you read the verses after eight and nine you will find out is talking about the works of the law by which no one was saved and by which the Pharisees thought they could be saved by keeping them the way they did.

Many times people quote Romans 4:1-5 to prove their argument that Faith does not include works. There are three things that they are missing. First of all, if you read Romans 3:28-31, what would see that is talking about the works of the law. Abraham lived before the law and down in Romans4:6 we see that David lived under the law but he was still Justified by faith when he kept the law.

Romans 3:28-31 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 - Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 - since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 - Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 4:1-6 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 - For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 - Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 - But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 - just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Also, you will recall that in Colossians 2:11-13, God also circumcises, spiritually, the one who is baptized to have faith that he will forgive them other sins and give them the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Also comment as you read through the conversions in the book of Acts, in every case there are always baptized the same day that they believed.

Well, that is all for now and I thank you for the time that you have spent in reading this.

Wayne

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are claiming a definitive. Show me the verse, just one.

Ephesians 2:8,9 was already quoted by someone else. That is more than enough.

 

[Lamar]

Ephesians 2:8,9 was already quoted by someone else. That is more than enough.

This is the text:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

You don't know what a definitive is......do you?

definitive

dĭ-fĭn′ĭ-tĭv
adjective

1. Serving to define or identify as distinct from others.
2. Supplying or being a final settlement or decision; conclusive: synonym: decisive.
3. Authoritative and complete.

The two verses are written in the general and certainly not definitive.
The word "faith" is not even remotely defined.

This is why faith alone regeneration theology is but a house of cards.
It is a theology without an example.
A theology based on generalities negating clear directives, along with their accompanying promises.

 

[Cameron143]

This is the text:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

You don't know what a definitive is......do you?

definitive

dĭ-fĭn′ĭ-tĭv
adjective

1. Serving to define or identify as distinct from others.
2. Supplying or being a final settlement or decision; conclusive: synonym: decisive.
3. Authoritative and complete.

The two verses are written in the general and certainly not definitive.
The word "faith" is not even remotely defined.

This is why faith alone regeneration theology is but a house of cards.
It is a theology without an example.
A theology based on generalities negating clear directives, along with their accompanying promises.

Is Acts 2:37 definitive?

 

[Lamar]

Is Acts 2:37 definitive?

Of course not.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course not.

Who gave them ears to hear? Who pricked their hearts?

 

[Lamar]

Who gave them ears to hear? Who pricked their hearts?

God gives everyone the ability to hear His gospel, it is for us to listen and not allow anyone to tickle them. (2Tim 4:3)
A soft heart is easily pricked. We must not harden our hearts (Hebrews 3:8)

What is your point?

 

[Cameron143]

God gives everyone the ability to hear His gospel, it is for us to listen and not allow anyone to tickle them. (2Tim 4:3)
A soft heart is easily pricked. We must not harden our hearts (Hebrews 3:8)

What is your point?

God does not give everyone the ability to hear...Matthew 13:10-17. And they didn't prick their own hearts. God did.
My point is you make much of what people are to do but nothing of what God has done. Salvation for you appears to magnify the actions of men rather than the actions of God.

 

[VARob]

God does not give everyone the ability to hear...Matthew 13:10-17. And they didn't prick their own hearts. God did.
My point is you make much of what people are to do but nothing of what God has done. Salvation for you appears to magnify the actions of men rather than the actions of God.

Everyone has the capacity to hear and has the ability to choose to believe the gospel. God is trying to prick everyone's heart.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Cameron143]

Everyone has the capacity to hear and has the ability to choose to believe the gospel. God is trying to prick everyone's heart.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

What do you make of Matthew 13:10-17?

 

[VARob]

What do you make of Matthew 13:10-17?

Matt 10:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

People close their own eyes.

 

[Cameron143]

Matt 10:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

People close their own eyes.

I agree. This is the estate of unregenerate man. They fit themselves for destruction. But while they are in this estate, it doesn't say they have the ability to change it.
The hearing and seeing here is not physical, it's spiritual. Who can save themselves? The hearing and pricking come first and from outside the person.

 

[VARob]

I agree. This is the estate of unregenerate man. They fit themselves for destruction. But while they are in this estate, it doesn't say they have the ability to change it.
The hearing and seeing here is not physical, it's spiritual. Who can save themselves? The hearing and pricking come first and from outside the person.

Calvinism isn't true, Cameron.