Was Jesus the first man?

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Jesus is the name we give to the Word

and the Word existed before he was born on earth
 
taylorswiftfan said:
Jesus is the name we give to the Word

and the Word existed before he was born on earth
Click to expand...
A is A. Say 'the Word' when you mean the Word. Would you call a piece of bacon a sandwich simply because it would be later placed between to pieces of bread?
 
VickyK said:
A is A. Say 'the Word' when you mean the Word. Would you call a piece of bacon a sandwich simply because it would be later placed between to pieces of bread?
Click to expand...

the Word has a name and that name is Jesus
 
VickyK said:
A is A. Say 'the Word' when you mean the Word. Would you call a piece of bacon a sandwich simply because it would be later placed between to pieces of bread?
Click to expand...

imagine that a boy was never given a name until his 10th birthday

on his 10th birthday he was given the name John

it would still be meaningful to talk about what John did when he was five years old

in the same way, the Word was given the name Jesus when he became flesh but it is still meaningful to talk about what Jesus did before he was made flesh
 
VickyK said:
Jesus is not by definition fully human and fully divine?
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Hi Vicky,

I was just following up from my previous post. Which of these two scenarios best fits your doctrine of God/Jesus?

Scenario A:
The pre-incarnate Jesus alone created the heavens and the earth, and in the incarnation took on the role of "the Son."

Scenario B:
The pre-incarnate Jesus existed eternally alongside of, and whose work in creation is coextensive with, the Father. At a later point in the incarnation, the pre-incarnate Jesus assumed the role of "the Son."

Once this is addressed, more thoughts and questions will follow!
 
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williamjordan said:
Hi Vicky,

I was just following up from my previous post. Which of these two scenarios best fits your doctrine of God/Jesus?

Scenario A:
The pre-incarnate Jesus alone created the heavens and the earth, and in the incarnation took on the role of "the Son."

Scenario B:
The pre-incarnate Jesus existed eternally alongside of, and whose work in creation is coextensive with, the Father. At a later point in the incarnation, the pre-incarnate Jesus assumed the role of "the Son."

Once this is addressed, more thoughts and questions will follow!
Click to expand...
Great question.

Neither. Both are loaded questions as they presuppose a 'pre incarnate' Jesus. I don't understand how Jesus can have a pre incarnate (pre human) self as Jesus is fully human and fully divine.

However, I can't deny the eternality of Jesus, as that would be heresy, and result in my being banned.
 
VickyK said:
Great question.

Neither. Both are loaded questions as they presuppose a 'pre incarnate' Jesus. I don't understand how Jesus can have a pre incarnate (pre human) self as Jesus is fully human and fully divine.

However, I can't deny the eternality of Jesus, as that would be heresy, and result in my being banned.
Click to expand...

So then let's rephrase this. Prior to assuming human form, He...

Scenario A:
Alone created the heavens and the earth, and in the incarnation took on the role of "the Son."

Scenario B:
Existed eternally alongside of, and whose work in creation is coextensive with, the Father. And at a later point in the incarnation assumed the role of "the Son."

Does that make it easier?
 
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VickyK said:
Great question.

Neither. Both are loaded questions as they presuppose a 'pre incarnate' Jesus. I don't understand how Jesus can have a pre incarnate (pre human) self as Jesus is fully human and fully divine.

However, I can't deny the eternality of Jesus, as that would be heresy, and result in my being banned.
Click to expand...
Jesus, being divine, came to earth, born in a human body, to relate to His creation.
He is God, and represents God in human form.
So, He is both, but the humanity of Him, is also separate to the spirit.
Hence the crucifixion.
Does that make sense ?
It's like us as people, we are souls in an earthly body, but we are not divine like Him.
 
taylorswiftfan said:
imagine that a boy was never given a name until his 10th birthday

on his 10th birthday he was given the name John

it would still be meaningful to talk about what John did when he was five years old

in the same way, the Word was given the name Jesus when he became flesh but it is still meaningful to talk about what Jesus did before he was made flesh
Click to expand...
The boy is as indifferent in matter when he came into the name as he was before doing so.

The word is not human. Jesus is human. If one considers that the Word is the analogical 'bacon' and Jesus the 'two pieces of bread' it is placed between, one can understand that whilst Jesus may be the analogical bacon sandwich the Word cannot be correctly described as such.

I don't understand why these semantics are not transcended by referring only to GOD, but I'm guessing I've committed a heresy by suggesting that.
 
williamjordan said:
So then let's rephrase this. Prior to assuming human form, He...

Scenario A:
Alone created the heavens and the earth, and in the incarnation took on the role of "the Son."

Scenario B:
Existed eternally alongside of, and whose work in creation is coextensive with, the Father. And at a later point in the incarnation assumed the role of "the Son."

Does that make it easier?
Click to expand...
Sadly I can't answer. I could be reported.
 
VickyK said:
Sadly I can't answer. I could be reported.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Scenario B is Trinitarian incarnational Sonship. However, Scenario A is Unitarian incarnational Sonship. Surely, if Scenario B were your view then you would not need to fear being reported.
 
VickyK said:
The boy is as indifferent in matter when he came into the name as he was before doing so.

The word is not human. Jesus is human. If one considers that the Word is the analogical 'bacon' and Jesus the 'two pieces of bread' it is placed between, one can understand that whilst Jesus may be the analogical bacon sandwich the Word cannot be correctly described as such.

I don't understand why these semantics are not transcended by referring only to GOD, but I'm guessing I've committed a heresy by suggesting that.
Click to expand...

the Word is God the Son

the Word is currently both divine and human

what makes Jesus Jesus is the fact that he is God the Son and not by whether or not he is human (although he currently is human)
 
"the Word" refers only to God the Son and not to either God the Father or God the Holy Spirit

so you would be right to say "the Word" is God but wrong to say God is "the Word"
 
God the Son is currently human but neither God the Father nor God the Holy Spirit are human
 
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