Unlawful orders

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A few months ago, Pete Hegseth addressed the military brass in Quantico, VA. He said the military will no longer follow the "stupid" and "politically correct" rules of engagement. What he says here is soldiers should be unleashed to inflict maximum lethality on the enemy by any means necessary to win. In other words, win at all costs, whether it's lawful or not and he'll have your back. This is extremely difficult to watch but the horse is saying directly from his own mouth what we see him doing right now..

 
A few months ago, Pete Hegseth addressed the military brass in Quantico, VA. He said the military will no longer follow the "stupid" and "politically correct" rules of engagement. What he says here is soldiers should be unleashed to inflict maximum lethality on the enemy by any means necessary to win. In other words, win at all costs, whether it's lawful or not and he'll have your back. This is extremely difficult to watch but the horse is saying directly from his own mouth what we see him doing right now..

He RA!

I'm sure you had the same outrage at your boy Obama when he did ALL his drone strike attacks on foreign threats to the US right? Or just more hypocrisy from you and your leftist co horts.

Here's a SIXTEEN year old Obama killed, except HE, was a US citizen:

al-awlaki-son-600x356.jpg
 
No they said that Military personal don't have to obey illegal/unlawful orders and that they are required to not obey unlawful orders which is what Article 92 says.
What authority determines whether the orders were unlawful or not? It can't be left up to the individual military member as chaos would result.

As Colonel Jessup said in the movie A Few Good Men, "We follow orders or people die". A particular order may not be popular but that doesn't mean that it was unlawful. Strange though, the ones that said to not follow unlawful orders were all Democrats.

The one member who actually retired from the military will certainly be recalled to active duty, court-martialed, and be found guilty as charged. Either he will lose some rank, go to prison, or both.
 
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Before the devil knows you're dead, may you be in heaven my friend. from alien

This is bizarre. Do you think people are somehow sneaking into heaven and God doesn't know? What Bible translation are you working out of?
 
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Here's the PSA that the six senators published about not obeying unlawful orders; I just wanted to make a couple comments about it. It seems to have maga in an uproar, but for no good reason in my opinion. First there's the "show us the unlawful orders" argument. That's irrelevant and a distraction because the PSA didn't tell anyone to disobey any specific order. But if a specific order is needed, one look no further than the unlawful deployment of the military against Americans on US soil. That's clearly unconstitutional and illegal. The federal courts have already ruled that the Donald has to cut it out. Then there's the argument that the PSA encourages troops to disobey orders. That's simply a lie as anyone can plainly see from the PSA. It says no one is under any obligation to obey unlawful orders.
It's probably been said, but this makes sense, other than the deployment of troops against americans part which as far as I know has not been happening.
 
What authority determines whether the orders were unlawful or not? It can't be left up to the individual military member as chaos would result.

As Colonel Jessup said in the movie A Few Good Men, "We follow orders or people die". A particular order may not be popular but that doesn't mean that it was unlawful. Strange though, the ones that said to not follow unlawful orders were all Democrats.

The one member who actually retired from the military will certainly be recalled to active duty, court-martialed, and be found guilty as charged. Either he will lose some rank, go to prison, or both.
As an ex military person, I can assure you that there are orders that must be disobeyed. "I was just following orders" does not cut it at a war crimes trial. So executing POWs or unarmed civilians is definitely unlawful. Russian troops do this routinely but they are not prosecuted for it. That's the extreme case.

There are also cases where an order is based on a lack of knowledge of the situation on the ground. Some have won battles by ignoring orders from out of touch superiors. There was a case in WW2 where two men went AWOl (absent without leave), stole a boat and started a sabotage campaign. They ended up creating a diversion and helping a planned commando raid to succeed. They were charged and imprisoned. Churchill gave them a commendation.

It's a true story, but could have ended badly. The two soldiers (dentists desperate to fight) could have got in the way of the commando operation rather than helping.
 
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What authority determines whether the orders were unlawful or not? It can't be left up to the individual military member as chaos would result.

As Colonel Jessup said in the movie A Few Good Men, "We follow orders or people die". A particular order may not be popular but that doesn't mean that it was unlawful. Strange though, the ones that said to not follow unlawful orders were all Democrats.

The one member who actually retired from the military will certainly be recalled to active duty, court-martialed, and be found guilty as charged. Either he will lose some rank, go to prison, or both.

Congress determines what is or is not lawful or unlawful. It is in Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution of the United States. https://jsc.defense.gov/Military-La...tion of the United States,See Appendix 1, MCM). The portion of Article 92 UCMJ explains the differences and duties of lawful or unlawful orders. https://www.ucmjlaw.com/article-92-can-service-members-refuse-an-illegal-order/
 
Here we go again. Donald is so concerned with drug trafficking he just pardoned one of the biggest drug traffickers ever. He claims Orlando was unfairly treated by the Biden administration; but it was Donald's former personal lawyer and assistant US Attorney Emil Bove who helped prosecute this case. Bove has now been appointed as a federal judge by the Donald. C'mon Donald, get your story straight. Are you for narcoterrorists or against them? He must've had a very good payday from this one.


 
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𝑰𝒔 𝑷𝒆𝒕𝒆 𝑯𝒆𝒈𝒔𝒆𝒕𝒉 𝒈𝒖𝒊𝒍𝒕𝒚 𝒐𝒇 𝒂 𝒘𝒂𝒓 𝒄𝒓𝒊𝒎𝒆 𝒈𝒊𝒗𝒊�𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒐𝒓𝒅𝒆𝒓𝒔 𝒇𝒐𝒓 𝒂 𝒔𝒆𝒄𝒐𝒏𝒅 𝒔𝒕𝒓𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒐𝒏 𝒎𝒆𝒏 𝒂𝒔 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒚 𝒄𝒍𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒐 𝒂 𝒔𝒉𝒊𝒑 𝒊𝒏 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒘𝒂𝒕𝒆𝒓 𝒂𝒇𝒕𝒆𝒓 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒇𝒊𝒓𝒔𝒕 𝒔𝒕𝒓𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒂𝒓𝒆 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒐𝒏𝒆𝒔 𝒘𝒉𝒐 𝒄𝒂𝒓𝒓𝒊𝒆𝒅 𝒐𝒖𝒕 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒔𝒆𝒐𝒓𝒅𝒆𝒓𝒔 𝒂𝒍𝒔𝒐 𝒈𝒖𝒊𝒍𝒕𝒚 𝒐𝒇 𝒘𝒂𝒓 𝒄𝒓𝒊𝒎𝒆𝒔?
 
𝑰𝒔 𝑷𝒆𝒕𝒆 𝑯𝒆𝒈𝒔𝒆𝒕𝒉 𝒈𝒖𝒊𝒍𝒕𝒚 𝒐𝒇 𝒂 𝒘𝒂𝒓 𝒄𝒓𝒊𝒎𝒆 𝒈𝒊𝒗𝒊�𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒐𝒓𝒅𝒆𝒓𝒔 𝒇𝒐𝒓 𝒂 𝒔𝒆𝒄𝒐𝒏𝒅 𝒔𝒕𝒓𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒐𝒏 𝒎𝒆𝒏 𝒂𝒔 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒚 𝒄𝒍𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒐 𝒂 𝒔𝒉𝒊𝒑 𝒊𝒏 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒘𝒂𝒕𝒆𝒓 𝒂𝒇𝒕𝒆𝒓 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒇𝒊𝒓𝒔𝒕 𝒔𝒕𝒓𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒂𝒓𝒆 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒐𝒏𝒆𝒔 𝒘𝒉𝒐 𝒄𝒂𝒓𝒓𝒊𝒆𝒅 𝒐𝒖𝒕 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒔𝒆𝒐𝒓𝒅𝒆𝒓𝒔 𝒂𝒍𝒔𝒐 𝒈𝒖𝒊𝒍𝒕𝒚 𝒐𝒇 𝒘𝒂𝒓 𝒄𝒓𝒊𝒎𝒆𝒔?

He's either guilty of murder or a war crime. If we're at war, then yes, he's guilty of a war crime. The strike on helpless people in the water is spelled out very specifically in the Geneva Conventions as unlawful. If we're not at war, then what they're doing is murdering people with no evidence at all they've done anything illegal.

Personally I think Hegseth gave the order to do whatever it took to kill them all. If that means it takes 20 strikes, then he's okay with it. He spoke to the military brass in September, telling them that he was authorizing the officers in the field to do whatever it took for "maximum lethality" without worrying about the "stupid" rules of engagement or political correctness, and he'll have their back (See my post #141 above. Get it from the horse's mouth). If I was a betting man, I'd bet the farm Pete will throw them under the bus as fast as he can if it looks like he's in trouble.
 
𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒂𝒓𝒆 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒐𝒏𝒆𝒔 𝒘𝒉𝒐 𝒄𝒂𝒓𝒓𝒊𝒆𝒅 𝒐𝒖𝒕 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒔𝒆𝒐𝒓𝒅𝒆𝒓𝒔 𝒂𝒍𝒔𝒐 𝒈𝒖𝒊𝒍𝒕𝒚 𝒐𝒇 𝒘𝒂𝒓 𝒄𝒓𝒊𝒎𝒆𝒔?

Yes, if they knew or should have known the order was illegal then they're guilty too. Admiral Alvin Holsey resigned when all this started because he didn't want to get court martialed for following illegal orders. Normally, officers would have access to JAG lawyers who could advise them; unfortunately, Hegseth fired them as soon as he took over.
 
Unbelievable. In this video from 2016, Pete Hegseth says: "I do think there have to be consequences for abject war crimes. If you're doing something that is just completely unlawful and ruthless, then there is a consequence for that. That's why the military said it won't follow unlawful orders from their commander-in-chief [Obama]."

This video is interesting for a couple reasons: 1) It shows that soldiers do actually get court martialed for following illegal orders; 2) Hegseth wants to open an investigation into Mark Kelly for saying the exact same thing he did. Somewhere along the way I think Hegseth lost his marbles.

It's cued up to where he starts talking about this.

 
𝑰𝒔 𝑷𝒆𝒕𝒆 𝑯𝒆𝒈𝒔𝒆𝒕𝒉 𝒈𝒖𝒊𝒍𝒕𝒚 𝒐𝒇 𝒂 𝒘𝒂𝒓 𝒄𝒓𝒊𝒎𝒆 𝒈𝒊𝒗𝒊�𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒐𝒓𝒅𝒆𝒓𝒔 𝒇𝒐𝒓 𝒂 𝒔𝒆𝒄𝒐𝒏𝒅 𝒔𝒕𝒓𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒐𝒏 𝒎𝒆𝒏 𝒂𝒔 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒚 𝒄𝒍𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒐 𝒂 𝒔𝒉𝒊𝒑 𝒊𝒏 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒘𝒂𝒕𝒆𝒓 𝒂𝒇𝒕𝒆𝒓 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒇𝒊𝒓𝒔𝒕 𝒔𝒕𝒓𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒂𝒓𝒆 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒐𝒏𝒆𝒔 𝒘𝒉𝒐 𝒄𝒂𝒓𝒓𝒊𝒆𝒅 𝒐𝒖𝒕 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒔𝒆𝒐𝒓𝒅𝒆𝒓𝒔 𝒂𝒍𝒔𝒐 𝒈𝒖𝒊𝒍𝒕𝒚 𝒐𝒇 𝒘𝒂𝒓 𝒄𝒓𝒊𝒎𝒆𝒔?

Nope because they are legitimate targets that are actively engaged in war against the USA (and also various other nations in Central and South America too, not just the USA), they are already legitimately designated and recognized as terrorists helping an evil foreign State actor, and the order to kill them is legitimate. In essence these men are in Hell and their blood is on their own heads, they shouldn't have served Maduro and the cartels, they should not have ignored America's public warning, they should not have had drugs on their known narco-terrorist vessel, they should not have been in the waters the USA told them not to be in, they should not have the hatred in their hearts for man and God. They did have all those things they should not have done or had, and so they're dead. Basically, trying to suggest that it's a war crime to fight the enemy is not only flirting with seditious conspiracy, but it's just kind of a stupid way to go about it too, it's basically the "sympathy for the Devil" game.
 
Nope because they are legitimate targets that are actively engaged in war against the USA (and also various other nations in Central and South America too, not just the USA), they are already legitimately designated and recognized as terrorists helping an evil foreign State actor, and the order to kill them is legitimate. In essence these men are in Hell and their blood is on their own heads, they shouldn't have served Maduro and the cartels, they should not have ignored America's public warning, they should not have had drugs on their known narco-terrorist vessel, they should not have been in the waters the USA told them not to be in, they should not have the hatred in their hearts for man and God. They did have all those things they should not have done or had, and so they're dead. Basically, trying to suggest that it's a war crime to fight the enemy is not only flirting with seditious conspiracy, but it's just kind of a stupid way to go about it too, it's basically the "sympathy for the Devil" game.

You have to remember it's not like Hegseth woke up and decided to blow some terrorists away. This is a well thought out and justified mission already, it's already a legitimate military operation called Operation Southern Spear. Therefore the orders are just in tandem with the Operation, ergo the orders are both lawful and legitimate, they are relevant to Operation Southern Spear. For the orders to be illegitimate they would have to basically not serve any purpose or be weak in efficacy to the context of Operation Southern Spear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Southern_Spear
 
Operation Southern Spear then was created and approved by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, ergo the military's very highest officers of every branch, not by Hegseth nor by Trump. So indeed, if the Seditious Six after making their seditious conspiracy to prime the military to rebellion are now trying to make an excuse to justify themselves and link their sedtious conspiracy to the current events under Operation Southern Spear, really this is even worse for them, because they're not trying to subvert Trump then, but the implications are that they are literally attempting to subvert the US military primarily itself, as well as then secondarily the elected government and People of the USA. Textbook treason really even more than seditious conspiracy.
 
Nope because they are legitimate targets that are actively engaged in war against the USA (and also various other nations in Central and South America too, not just the USA), they are already legitimately designated and recognized as terrorists helping an evil foreign State actor, and the order to kill them is legitimate. In essence these men are in Hell and their blood is on their own heads, they shouldn't have served Maduro and the cartels, they should not have ignored America's public warning, they should not have had drugs on their known narco-terrorist vessel, they should not have been in the waters the USA told them not to be in, they should not have the hatred in their hearts for man and God. They did have all those things they should not have done or had, and so they're dead. Basically, trying to suggest that it's a war crime to fight the enemy is not only flirting with seditious conspiracy, but it's just kind of a stupid way to go about it too, it's basically the "sympathy for the Devil" game.
• The Law of War is Conditional: The response fails to apply the critical rule of hors de combat. A person's status as a combatant/terrorist/enemy does not give forces the right to kill them once they are clearly shipwrecked, surrendered, or otherwise incapable of fighting. The law of war is designed to regulate conduct, even toward the worst enemies.


• Imminent Threat is Key: The only way to justify the strike is if the men still posed an immediate, imminent threat. Their past affiliation, political designation, or moral failings are irrelevant to whether they can be lawfully targeted at that specific moment.


• Designation is Not a Blank Check: Being labeled a "narco-terrorist" does not negate the protections afforded by LOAC to individuals who are hors de combat.


• The "Seditious Conspiracy" claim is baseless. Questioning whether a military action complies with international law is a legitimate inquiry in a democratic society, not a conspiracy to overthrow the government.


That perspective is incorrect based on the fundamental principles of the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC), specifically the Geneva Conventions.


While the men may have been designated 'legitimate targets' and 'narco-terrorists' when they were operating the vessel, that status does not justify targeting them once they are hors de combat (out of combat).


The critical rule here is the prohibition against attacking shipwrecked persons who are incapable of resistance. Once the men were in the water, clinging to a vessel and no longer posing an immediate threat or actively participating in hostilities, they gained protection under international law, regardless of their prior crimes, political affiliations, or moral character. The purpose of LOAC is not to ensure justice or punish past actions, but to limit suffering in war by restricting permissible violence.


If the men were genuinely disarmed, in the water, and posed no immediate threat, ordering a second strike on them would be a direct violation of international law. The guilt of those carrying out the orders would depend on whether the order was so clearly unlawful that a reasonable person should have refused it."
 
• The Law of War is Conditional: The response fails to apply the critical rule of hors de combat. A person's status as a combatant/terrorist/enemy does not give forces the right to kill them once they are clearly shipwrecked, surrendered, or otherwise incapable of fighting. The law of war is designed to regulate conduct, even toward the worst enemies.


• Imminent Threat is Key: The only way to justify the strike is if the men still posed an immediate, imminent threat. Their past affiliation, political designation, or moral failings are irrelevant to whether they can be lawfully targeted at that specific moment.


• Designation is Not a Blank Check: Being labeled a "narco-terrorist" does not negate the protections afforded by LOAC to individuals who are hors de combat.


• The "Seditious Conspiracy" claim is baseless. Questioning whether a military action complies with international law is a legitimate inquiry in a democratic society, not a conspiracy to overthrow the government.


That perspective is incorrect based on the fundamental principles of the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC), specifically the Geneva Conventions.


While the men may have been designated 'legitimate targets' and 'narco-terrorists' when they were operating the vessel, that status does not justify targeting them once they are hors de combat (out of combat).


The critical rule here is the prohibition against attacking shipwrecked persons who are incapable of resistance. Once the men were in the water, clinging to a vessel and no longer posing an immediate threat or actively participating in hostilities, they gained protection under international law, regardless of their prior crimes, political affiliations, or moral character. The purpose of LOAC is not to ensure justice or punish past actions, but to limit suffering in war by restricting permissible violence.


If the men were genuinely disarmed, in the water, and posed no immediate threat, ordering a second strike on them would be a direct violation of international law. The guilt of those carrying out the orders would depend on whether the order was so clearly unlawful that a reasonable person should have refused it."

This fails because it hinges on overthrowing the military Joint Chiefs of Staff to recognize international law instead of American Law, so basically that's outright treason. Furthermore the terrorists killed fall under the terms of Operation Southern Spear's stated objectives to ensure the safety of the Carribbean and the Gulf of America, of which other island Latin American nations with a vested interest in not having these terrorist and pirate scum threaten them are cleaning the water.. This is rather the indicator of a highly efficient mission success in the greater aims of Operation Southern Spear. No sympathy for the Devil and all of his children, may God make them identify themselves and glow in the dark, all our enemies foreign and domestic will be tread into ashes and we will praise Jesus.
 
The Donald is blaming Hegseth, and Hegseth is blaming Admiral Bradley, lol. What a bunch of stand-up guys.