Unlawful orders

[SonJudgment]

Not at all. If there is an open ended declaration of war in the war on terrorism(which there is), and they are officially declared terrorist(which they are) that means that they fall under the articles of war and all of the laws and limits of those laws apply. I like the way Admiral Holsey put it where he explained that we cannot expect our own solders to be treated in accordance to the laws and regulations of war if we do not set that example ourselves. The decision by Trump was to declare them as terrorist because it falls under that congressionally approved declaration of war. That means he has to follow those rules or face war crimes if not.

Nah this is a really bogus claim to suggest it is a war crime especially after a lot of subversion in the past. This will just encourage Trump to crack down on the subversives harder, and also drive the population at large to support Trump more actually and distrust the democrats even more. I understand your premise if we remove the idea of war crimes, it is philosophically sound (ie: the principle of reciprocity, that if we take extreme measures others will too.) The situation though is that Venezuela has become so extreme that intervention is neccessary. Maduro's reign and also foreign activities, not just against the USA I would add, constitute a valid neccessity for the USA to intervene. From both a purely internal nationalistic narrative Trump is in the right pretty solidly, but also accounting for the international dynamic it's kinda like Maduro has run out of his last excuses. No one will actually stand up to the USA for him because he's an idiot dictator whose incompetence and corruption is so vast it's actually quite evil. I mean here's a guy who is functionally a billionaire via narco-terrorism while for a comparative middle class job a regular person earns $5 a month. You factor in his aggression lately not just in threatening Puerto Rico and the USA, which is almost laughable, but also his weaker smaller neighbor Guyana which very much is kinda helpless against his overt aggression. Then simply in the matters of removing him, we don't really need a declaration of war or to repeat Iraq and Afghanistan (which I presume mutally we both don't want that.) We just need to simply kill Maduro or convince him to surrender himself or flee into exile, and pretty much literally any person or faction will do a better job than him because he is the literal record holder of incompetence and corruption.

 

[Squigglylines]

Nah this is a really bogus claim to suggest it is a war crime especially after a lot of subversion in the past. This will just encourage Trump to crack down on the subversives harder, and also drive the population at large to support Trump more actually and distrust the democrats even more. I understand your premise if we remove the idea of war crimes, it is philosophically sound (ie: the principle of reciprocity, that if we take extreme measures others will too.) The situation though is that Venezuela has become so extreme that intervention is neccessary. Maduro's reign and also foreign activities, not just against the USA I would add, constitute a valid neccessity for the USA to intervene. From both a purely internal nationalistic narrative Trump is in the right pretty solidly, but also accounting for the international dynamic it's kinda like Maduro has run out of his last excuses. No one will actually stand up to the USA for him because he's an idiot dictator whose incompetence and corruption is so vast it's actually quite evil. I mean here's a guy who is functionally a billionaire via narco-terrorism while for a comparative middle class job a regular person earns $5 a month. You factor in his aggression lately not just in threatening Puerto Rico and the USA, which is almost laughable, but also his weaker smaller neighbor Guyana which very much is kinda helpless against his overt aggression. Then simply in the matters of removing him, we don't really need a declaration of war or to repeat Iraq and Afghanistan (which I presume mutally we both don't want that.) We just need to simply kill Maduro or convince him to surrender himself or flee into exile, and pretty much literally any person or faction will do a better job than him because he is the literal record holder of incompetence and corruption.

The part about Maduro, removing him, going after drug dealers ect. is not what I'm meaning. What I mean is if he approaches this the way he is doing by declaring them terrorist and using the laws already approved by Congress then he has to obey those laws. If he sees boats he has to stop them and make sure they are delivering drugs and not taking food and parts out to a oil drilling platform or something else. In other words collect evidence, charge them with crimes ect. and prosecute them. In the Constitution of the United States and it's amendments and all other laws that were passed by our lawmakers they put into law the bounds and limits of our branches of government. As for the military which falls under the Executive branch of our government and the Commander and Chief of it(POTUS) it sets down what is lawful and unlawful. In the OP it is about not obeying unlawful orders pointed out by current congress persons based on the laws set into law by congress members in our histories past. For any of us to think that it is improper for current Congress personnel to point out what our past Congress personnel had passed into law as to what is lawful or unlawful is the same as overturning the entire Constitution. If it is already spoken by our Congressmen and not illegal that they set it into law then it cannot be illegal for any of our current Congress members to repeat it in fact it is their job duty to do so. Again the main point is that it is not unlawful to patrol the waters of the United States and arrest illegal drug traffickers or those committing any other crime and I endorse it. That does not change the fact that it is also a criminal act to act as judge jury and executioner and to execute them without proving they are in fact criminals with tangible evidence. It is a war crime if this falls under a declared war (war on terrorism) and an impeachable offense if ordered by the POTUS and a war crime if unlawful orders were/are obeyed by the others involved. The House and Senate are not opening a probe into the sinking of these vessels and the deaths of these people just to appease the Left they instead are investigating the legality of it to see if it is/was lawfully or unlawfully carried out.

 

[SonJudgment]

The part about Maduro, removing him, going after drug dealers ect. is not what I'm meaning. What I mean is if he approaches this the way he is doing by declaring them terrorist and using the laws already approved by Congress then he has to obey those laws. If he sees boats he has to stop them and make sure they are delivering drugs and not taking food and parts out to a oil drilling platform or something else. In other words collect evidence, charge them with crimes ect. and prosecute them. In the Constitution of the United States and it's amendments and all other laws that were passed by our lawmakers they put into law the bounds and limits of our branches of government. As for the military which falls under the Executive branch of our government and the Commander and Chief of it(POTUS) it sets down what is lawful and unlawful. In the OP it is about not obeying unlawful orders pointed out by current congress persons based on the laws set into law by congress members in our histories past. For any of us to think that it is improper for current Congress personnel to point out what our past Congress personnel had passed into law as to what is lawful or unlawful is the same as overturning the entire Constitution. If it is already spoken by our Congressmen and not illegal that they set it into law then it cannot be illegal for any of our current Congress members to repeat it in fact it is their job duty to do so. Again the main point is that it is not unlawful to patrol the waters of the United States and arrest illegal drug traffickers or those committing any other crime and I endorse it. That does not change the fact that it is also a criminal act to act as judge jury and executioner and to execute them without proving they are in fact criminals with tangible evidence. It is a war crime if this falls under a declared war (war on terrorism) and an impeachable offense if ordered by the POTUS and a war crime if unlawful orders were/are obeyed by the others involved. The House and Senate are not opening a probe into the sinking of these vessels and the deaths of these people just to appease the Left they instead are investigating the legality of it to see if it is/was lawfully or unlawfully carried out.

Well to do that the military must obey orders though too. Hence the original topic at hand about priming the subordinates to commit sedition basically being a very grave matter with the Seditious Six (keeping in mind the 6 are high officers). US military has great capabilities that make identification of narco-terrorist vessels a given. Really the most comparable non-Trump example be to neutralizing the Somalian pirates under Obama's term and using similar justifications and purposes. Without going too much into a side tangent, essentially we had the technology back then of basically being able to see inside that boat. For reasons we have to be vague to a degree, but the USA especially since we're talking about the air force and havy, they have greater capabilities nowadays even to ascertain whether or not there is drugs on these vessels and even finer minutae than this even. On top of that this goes back to a point I raised before when about this specific incident that they're trying to find an excuse to save the Seditious Six about. See here's the problem with trying to cast it as a war crime or any of that because they exactly followed procedure it's both a lawful order and procedurally executed actually quite well under Hegseth's leadership really even moreso than Trump's. We didn't just start doing this yesterday though in fairness to you it's just now being more talked about by the mainstream. We have been gradually and methodically strengthening the surrounding legal and moral justifications for this by putting bounties on Maduro and his top brass, giving them forewarnngs not to be in certain stretches of water at certain times, clearly detailing their crimes to the public, kinda begrudginly to Trump's ego for the anti-Trump people the Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Muchado won a Nobel Peace Prize for exactly her efforts in opposing Maduro (whom he very real is trying to assassinate her), the USA even has broadcast when it was sending its ffleet down to the region, and so forth and so on. This builds credibiity that America is rather building a logical and mature approach to this rather than some spur of the moment or impulsive type action. Furthermore it's pretty standard US policy, it's the we give them warnings and demonstrations, if we hit them yea we'll hit them hard, but it won't be a sucker punch.

 

[Squigglylines]

It's the job of Congress to inform the Military of the laws regarding legal or illegal orders. The top JAG for Southern Command,Marine Col. Paul Meagher informed them that firing on the civilian vessels without provocation was a violation of both international and US law. The advice was disregarded and was approved then higher up in command. Afterwards Admiral Alvin Holsey Commander of Southern Command also raised the point of legal/illegal orders concerning firing on these vessels. In the video you posted they intentionally state "illegal orders" because their are Colonel's and Admirals who are bringing up the legality of orders they are being ask to carry out.

Since post 42 I've been saying this isn't about the NG troops in DC and other places but instead the boats in the Caribbean. Military forum's were all on it several months ago when it was taking place.

 

[Squigglylines]

Well to do that the military must obey orders though too. Hence the original topic at hand about priming the subordinates to commit sedition basically being a very grave matter with the Seditious Six (keeping in mind the 6 are high officers). US military has great capabilities that make identification of narco-terrorist vessels a given. Really the most comparable non-Trump example be to neutralizing the Somalian pirates under Obama's term and using similar justifications and purposes. Without going too much into a side tangent, essentially we had the technology back then of basically being able to see inside that boat. For reasons we have to be vague to a degree, but the USA especially since we're talking about the air force and havy, they have greater capabilities nowadays even to ascertain whether or not there is drugs on these vessels and even finer minutae than this even. On top of that this goes back to a point I raised before when about this specific incident that they're trying to find an excuse to save the Seditious Six about. See here's the problem with trying to cast it as a war crime or any of that because they exactly followed procedure it's both a lawful order and procedurally executed actually quite well under Hegseth's leadership really even moreso than Trump's. We didn't just start doing this yesterday though in fairness to you it's just now being more talked about by the mainstream. We have been gradually and methodically strengthening the surrounding legal and moral justifications for this by putting bounties on Maduro and his top brass, giving them forewarnngs not to be in certain stretches of water at certain times, clearly detailing their crimes to the public, kinda begrudginly to Trump's ego for the anti-Trump people the Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Muchado won a Nobel Peace Prize for exactly her efforts in opposing Maduro (whom he very real is trying to assassinate her), the USA even has broadcast when it was sending its ffleet down to the region, and so forth and so on. This builds credibiity that America is rather building a logical and mature approach to this rather than some spur of the moment or impulsive type action. Furthermore it's pretty standard US policy, it's the we give them warnings and demonstrations, if we hit them yea we'll hit them hard, but it won't be a sucker punch.

It's that E9 O1-2 thing where although an officer, that Sergeant still has years of experience under their belt. Don't think for a minute if you say to the enlisted somebody ate a raspberry Charms they wont execute that order in a split second without question. The thing is though uphill from that is the only ones who may question whats unlawful or not. That's why Holsey passed the responsibility on up chain to Hegseth and why the probe is focused on him instead of the Admiral.

 

[SonJudgment]

Since post 42 I've been saying this isn't about the NG troops in DC and other places but instead the boats in the Caribbean. Military forum's were all on it several months ago when it was taking place.

Yea that is what I am referring to also. For CC it's been a while since I hardcore engaged with it, but we talked about it some a few months back in ZNP's WW3 thread. ZNP still be posting some updates on Venezuela and the Carribbean region in general I been reading along still. Since this topic is kinda already a contrivance basically just a propaganda effort against Trump that they're now trying to desperately pin to something like Venezuela after the NG troop deployment excuse failed them, its becoming kinda scatterbrained. Another clear sign that the Seditious Six really just merely have a seditious plot that isn't even well thought out as I originally suspected. I might move over to the WW3 topic for further stuff about the Venezuela/Carribbean news I would think your perspective be cool for that topic too and I might re-engage it more. I will say for this topic I still maintain the Seditious Six are pretty blatantly just trying to commit sedition, but I would say your arguments would get me to soften then my judgment, instead of Terre Haute, the most logical punishment be to censure them in the Senate and remove them from key committees, end of the day they do know better these are high officers privy to secret information even, they certainly know better and they know they are purposefully lying and misconstruing the truth. In return you could indulge the idea you raise of a probe by the House and Senate into applications of the 21st century laws and such, not from a vantage point of trying to find fault endlessly in Trump or hyper-criticisizing every littlest action, but to establish the norm for handling the expanded powers granted post-9/11. I think that would be sufficient to make an example and mitigate the potentiall for sedition and treason while also of making US foreign policy less nebulous, and also specifically advancing the case built around Venezuela and the coming judgment from Heaven against Maduro personally.

 

[Squigglylines]

Yea that is what I am referring to also. For CC it's been a while since I hardcore engaged with it, but we talked about it some a few months back in ZNP's WW3 thread. ZNP still be posting some updates on Venezuela and the Carribbean region in general I been reading along still. Since this topic is kinda already a contrivance basically just a propaganda effort against Trump that they're now trying to desperately pin to something like Venezuela after the NG troop deployment excuse failed them, its becoming kinda scatterbrained. Another clear sign that the Seditious Six really just merely have a seditious plot that isn't even well thought out as I originally suspected. I might move over to the WW3 topic for further stuff about the Venezuela/Carribbean news I would think your perspective be cool for that topic too and I might re-engage it more. I will say for this topic I still maintain the Seditious Six are pretty blatantly just trying to commit sedition, but I would say your arguments would get me to soften then my judgment, instead of Terre Haute, the most logical punishment be to censure them in the Senate and remove them from key committees, end of the day they do know better these are high officers privy to secret information even, they certainly know better and they know they are purposefully lying and misconstruing the truth. In return you could indulge the idea you raise of a probe by the House and Senate into applications of the 21st century laws and such, not from a vantage point of trying to find fault endlessly in Trump or hyper-criticisizing every littlest action, but to establish the norm for handling the expanded powers granted post-9/11. I think that would be sufficient to make an example and mitigate the potentiall for sedition and treason while also of making US foreign policy less nebulous, and also specifically advancing the case built around Venezuela and the coming judgment from Heaven against Maduro personally.

When I first saw the S-six video I watched it several more times to see if they were suggesting disobeying orders and I don't see it in it. I know it's a good talking point on social media but nope what I saw was a veteran who started with ROTC,then College then the Military,then NASA going straight for the Juggler vein. The boats,Holsey ect. were all in the news all at the same time when they made the video and they were real careful how they worded it. The probe in the House/Senate=Hegseth was where they were going with it on day one and everything else was just assumptions made by people on social media. Even Reserve Officers Training Corp. in high school and in College (ROTC) teaches unlawful/lawful orders so it's not like it's forbidden knowledge or improper to say it.

 

[SonJudgment]

When I first saw the S-six video I watched it several more times to see if they were suggesting disobeying orders and I don't see it in it. I know it's a good talking point on social media but nope what I saw was a veteran who started with ROTC,then College then the Military,then NASA going straight for the Juggler vein. The boats,Holsey ect. were all in the news all at the same time when they made the video and they were real careful how they worded it. The probe in the House/Senate=Hegseth was where they were going with it on day one and everything else was just assumptions made by people on social media. Even Reserve Officers Training Corp. in high school and in College (ROTC) teaches unlawful/lawful orders so it's not like it's forbidden knowledge or improper to say it.

The spaceman is just their prop, personally I unfortunately have to estimate my Midwest homegirl I estimate Slutkin to be their actual brainbug. She knows better. This is a seditious plot and they really should just swing for it if we play by biblical rules. By their own conduct and secular rules in the last administration they'd already be in Terre Haute or worse like they did to everyday people for way way less like J6 which isn't even actually illegal at all. On the heels of other subversive activites it's no fooling us about it. The People also are sick of it, not just Trump, not just the GOP, not just the MI Complex, literally even the People are just sick of it. We're going into a new age, and it requires new thinking, Trump just the start, the pivot really, and we will be around long him. The leftwing must change and they will, the subversives will be thwarted and dealt with one way or the other, praise Jesus.

 

[tourist]

Send these traitors to Terre Haute where they belong. Additionally censure them and let the Far Left and the Far Right put both populist hands upon their treacherous necks and throw them down from power. May the stroongest possible sentence and example be made out of the corrupt and wicked Deep State democrat ringleaders of this seditious conspiracy against the People of the USA. Glory to the heroes that execute the order and protect the Rightful Sons, praise Jesus.

My sentiments exactly. Acts of sedition for sure.

 

[tourist]

When I first saw the S-six video I watched it several more times to see if they were suggesting disobeying orders and I don't see it in it. I know it's a good talking point on social media but nope what I saw was a veteran who started with ROTC,then College then the Military,then NASA going straight for the Juggler vein. The boats,Holsey ect. were all in the news all at the same time when they made the video and they were real careful how they worded it. The probe in the House/Senate=Hegseth was where they were going with it on day one and everything else was just assumptions made by people on social media. Even Reserve Officers Training Corp. in high school and in College (ROTC) teaches unlawful/lawful orders so it's not like it's forbidden knowledge or improper to say it.

Did those that said such things about disobeying orders outline any illegal orders that Trump, as Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces gave to any military personnel?

 

[SonJudgment]

My sentiments exactly. Acts of sedition for sure.

For the greater good though and to not jeopardize our narrow golden path to the golden age though there are some good points to synthesize from Squig's analyses. We will capture the brainbug, censure the rest of them, kick them out of committees, and ahem have our legally confirmed psychic soldiers..... experiment..... on the brainbug.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elissa_Slotkin

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dn7gxzYZAqM

 

[Eli1]

Yep I'm from the old days when the dollar bills and stuff said United States of America on them way back before the cancel culture stuff took hold. First it was the 12 English colonies, then the 13 English colonies, Then the United Colonies, then congress in Sept. 9th 1776 decided it was no longer United Colonies but was United States of America. On July 19 1776 a congressional resolution decided "these United Colonies are, and of Right ought be FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES. Then it changed in 1777, then again in 1781 and then in 1789 it was formally named the United States of America. The issue came up because the first nation called America in the Americas was Brazil(or Brasil). Then the pesky Canadian's were saying they were North Americans and everyone else on the American continent thought they were Americans too. It should be simple like Africa or Europe where there's no such thing like names of nation's and everyone calls them all Africans and Europeans and none of them argue that their nations name is Africa or Europe and so nobody else can use it. Things aren't that simple in a nation founded on immigration though because they name places New York in reference to old York. This was even one of the campaign promises Trump ran on too, teaching everyone to be patriotic and loving the "United States of America" like they use to but he's sure got an uphill battle on that one it seems.

Bro, you've been here since 1776? I was here with the Mayflower! Columbus is my first cousin on my mother's side. He was a good man, liked to tweak boats.
But despite this, i don't speaketh the English-th like people did in them dayz.

It's also interesting to me that you chose this response after i pointed out your grammar.

 

[Squigglylines]

The spaceman is just their prop, personally I unfortunately have to estimate my Midwest homegirl I estimate Slutkin to be their actual brainbug. She knows better. This is a seditious plot and they really should just swing for it if we play by biblical rules. By their own conduct and secular rules in the last administration they'd already be in Terre Haute or worse like they did to everyday people for way way less like J6 which isn't even actually illegal at all. On the heels of other subversive activites it's no fooling us about it. The People also are sick of it, not just Trump, not just the GOP, not just the MI Complex, literally even the People are just sick of it. We're going into a new age, and it requires new thinking, Trump just the start, the pivot really, and we will be around long him. The leftwing must change and they will, the subversives will be thwarted and dealt with one way or the other, praise Jesus.

Not sure how this will all turn out but in the Senate Armed Service committee(the only probe opened so far) it is bipartisan so Jack Reed who is a Dem. and Roger Wicker who is GOP/Miss. the thing is though Wicker the R was an Air Force Judge Advocate and so he would probably side with what is lawful verses unlawful without bias. Just a heads up on the who will examine this not being ignorant of lawful verses unlawful definitions.

 

[SonJudgment]

Not sure how this will all turn out but in the Senate Armed Service committee(the only probe opened so far) it is bipartisan so Jack Reed who is a Dem. and Roger Wicker who is GOP/Miss. the thing is though Wicker the R was an Air Force Judge Advocate and so he would probably side with what is lawful verses unlawful without bias. Just a heads up on the who will examine this not being ignorant of lawful verses unlawful definitions.

Smart, good looks!

 

[Squigglylines]

Bro, you've been here since 1776? I was here with the Mayflower! Columbus is my first cousin on my mother's side. He was a good man, liked to tweak boats.
But despite this, i don't speaketh the English-th like people did in them dayz.

It's also interesting to me that you chose this response after i pointed out your grammar.

Cool, Columbus a Latino/Hispanic that makes us Bros for sure,lol

 

[Eli1]

Cool, Columbus a Latino/Hispanic that makes us Bros for sure,lol

Mi casa su casa.

 

[SonJudgment]

Cool, Columbus a Latino/Hispanic that makes us Bros for sure,lol

Lol sorry to rain on your parade but Columbus only represented for the Crown of Hispaniola, he was actually Italian lol. Though favorably at that time both the Crown of Hispaniola and Italy were in tandem because of a strong era of CChristianity and rebirth of intellectualism, kind of in high era of both religion and science, the age of discovery so you're still cousins at least praise Jesus.

 

[Squigglylines]

Did those that said such things about disobeying orders outline any illegal orders that Trump, as Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces gave to any military personnel?

No they said that Military personal don't have to obey illegal/unlawful orders and that they are required to not obey unlawful orders which is what Article 92 says.

 

[Squigglylines]

Lol sorry to rain on your parade but Columbus only represented for the Crown of Hispaniola, he was actually Italian lol. Though favorably at that time both the Crown of Hispaniola and Italy were in tandem because of a strong era of CChristianity and rebirth of intellectualism, kind of in high era of both religion and science, the age of discovery so you're still cousins at least praise Jesus.

Both Latino and Hispanic denote the Language spoken not race or nationality. Hispanics are from Spanish speaking nations i.e. Spain,Mexico ect. and Latinos are from Latin speaking nations like Italy and others. Spanish is called Vulgar Latin or the language spoken by common people. The name originally vulgar meaning from Vulgate not vulgar meaning bad,lol it's sort of like everyone in the US now days using Genre to denote groups in arts,music,movies and mispronouncing it. It came from the French word that's pronounced Zhahn-rah which is also derived from Latin(the G is pronounced silent ZH) Anyway though there are Black,white and every other race of Hispanics or Latinos.

 

[Eli1]

Both Latino and Hispanic denote the Language spoken not race or nationality. Hispanics are from Spanish speaking nations i.e. Spain,Mexico ect. and Latinos are from Latin speaking nations like Italy and others. Spanish is called Vulgar Latin or the language spoken by common people. The name originally vulgar meaning from Vulgate not vulgar meaning bad,lol it's sort of like everyone in the US now days using Genre to denote groups in arts,music,movies and mispronouncing it. It came from the French word that's pronounced Zhahn-rah which is also derived from Latin(the G is pronounced silent ZH) Anyway though there are Black,white and every other race of Hispanics or Latinos.

I love how technical you get on these things and even though you are correct theoretically on the root language which is Latin, the reality is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay different than theory.
For example if you said "You are Latin" to an Italian in Italy, they might report you to Vito Corleone. Just saying, i'm actually giving you some advice if you travel as a tourist (at all) to avoid some faux-pass.