Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[MalikB]

Why do I call "holy spirit".... "set-apart energy"??

Holy - This word means set-apart/designated for a special purpose. This is why we have regular days and "holy" days. These holy days were set-apart from the others by The Most High for a special purpose.

Spirit - This word means wind/breath/life. Those things combined makeup what in English we would refer to as energy. If we lived in China, we would call this qi. Definition: Qi is believed to be a vital force forming part of any living entity. Literally meaning "vapor", "air", or "breath", the word qi is often translated as "vital energy", "vital force", "material energy", or simply as "energy".


*I used the word qi just for its definition. Any religion or philosophy it may be associated with is irrelevant. The point is that it means the same thing as the word ruach (hebrew) or the word pneuma (greek) in which the word "spirit" was translated from... Just a different language.

Spirit = Pneuma = Ruach = Qi = Energy




I have stated many times on this thread and shown in scripture that The Most High God is ALL and is in ALL. I don't think any one disagrees with that statement. However, it seems to be forgotten when someone pulls out a verse saying that He is something that supports the trinity doctrine...

So if you find a verse that says The Most High is "love"... Of course He is. He is ALL things.

If a verse says He is "peace"... Of course He is. He is ALL things.

If a verse says He is "spirit", again.... He is ALL things!



Another thing that causes confusion in scripture is when a verse has the holy spirit speaking.... or showing an emotion. People mistakenly think that this means the holy spirit has its own personality. We have to remember that the holy spirit belongs to The Father. It is His spirit.... Therefore He is mind/personality behind this energy... not someone different.


1 Kings 21:4-5

4 And Ahab came into his house heavy and displeased because of the word which Naboth the Jezreelite had spoken to him: for he had said, I will not give thee the inheritance of my fathers. And he laid him down upon his bed, and turned away his face, and would eat no bread.
5 But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad, that thou eatest no bread?

So we see in verse 4 that Ahab is feeling down... But in verse 5 his wife asks him why his spirit is sad. Is Ahab and his spirit 2 separate persons? Of course not. It is referred to as his spirit because he is the mind/personality behind it. Likewise, the holy spirit is not its own personality... but The Most High is the mind/personality behind it.





Genesis 6:3

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

1 Thessalonians 4:8

8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.


In both of these verses we see the spirit ultimately is from The Father by the words "my and his". These are not "persons" of His that He gave... This is energy/lifeforce/qi that He is supplying to mankind. What makes the spirit holy (set-apart/sacred/special) in Thessalonians, is that this energy is reserved for the righteous or anyone that The Most High uses in His plans.




ALL things ultimately come from The Most High.... From The Father, through the Son. "Holy spirit" does not originate from the Messiah. He is the gatekeeper of it. Again, energy can manifest in many ways (talents, emotions, etc.)... but this does not make it a separate person from the host or supplier of that energy.

"Spirit" is the God within us. It's what connects us all together and to The Most High. The Messiah is "one" with The Father, but the goal is for us all to be:

John 17:11

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


John 17:20-21

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[Nehemiah6]

People mistakenly think that this means the holy spirit has its own personality.

That is not a mistake. You are the one who is mistaken in calling God "energy". He is far more than "energy" and the Holy Spirit is a divine Person. The fact that you failed to capitalize Joly Spirit indicate that you hold to some heresy regarding the triune Godhead. The fact that you said "its" instead of "His" confirms that. If a person's beliefs about God are not derived from the Bible, nothing else makes any difference.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

No, they are not reading into the text what I want to believe...they are extracting from the text its true meaning.

Here are the words I hear.

The shema
Deuteronomy 6:4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Why would I say God is triune? Does God speak in riddles and conundrums like the sphinx? Why should I second guess the Words of God?

The only begotten son
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Why would I say "only begotten" means "mandate" to accommodate the triune godhead? Jesus is the first born any which way you cut it. Aren't you taking away from the Glory of Jesus calling him a "mandate"?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God - not a person.
Acts 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance....
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.

Why should I personify that which God gives to us? Don't you think it is somewhat insulting to the Deity? God gives me a Lambourgini, so I call the car God?

John 20:17 Jesus * said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’ ”

The Father is the God of Jesus from the mouth of Jesus. If Jesus is of the godhead, are you taking away the Glory from God? How is God of a God in the godhead calculation?

Doctrines of man are a no-no.
Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30:5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

 

[MalikB]

That is not a mistake. You are the one who is mistaken in calling God "energy". He is far more than "energy" and the Holy Spirit is a divine Person. The fact that you failed to capitalize Joly Spirit indicate that you hold to some heresy regarding the triune Godhead. The fact that you said "its" instead of "His" confirms that. If a person's beliefs about God are not derived from the Bible, nothing else makes any difference.

You haven't addressed any of the scriptures I've posted. You just stating that I'm wrong without showing HOW that is, does not mean anything. I'm sorry that the lack of capital letters offends you, but I'm not sure how you would have learned anything living with Moses or Jesus seeing that neither Hebrew or Greek contain these capital letters. You also don't seem to understand how the pronouns work in these languages.... how gender is applied to certain masculine and feminine words and how some pronouns are universal and may get translated into different words. Also, many places in scripture contain the personification of non living things:


Genesis 4:10

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Psalm 77:16

The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled.

Isaiah 24:23

Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Joel 1:10

The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.



Can blood cry? Can water be afraid? Can the sun be ashamed? Can land mourn?

Are we to assume these are all persons as well?

 

[justbyfaith]

Here are the words I hear.

The shema
Deuteronomy 6:4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Why would I say God is triune? Does God speak in riddles and conundrums like the sphinx? Why should I second guess the Words of God?

The only begotten son
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Why would I say "only begotten" means "mandate" to accommodate the triune godhead? Jesus is the first born any which way you cut it. Aren't you taking away from the Glory of Jesus calling him a "mandate"?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God - not a person.
Acts 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance....
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.

Why should I personify that which God gives to us? Don't you think it is somewhat insulting to the Deity? God gives me a Lambourgini, so I call the car God?

John 20:17 Jesus * said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’ ”

The Father is the God of Jesus from the mouth of Jesus. If Jesus is of the godhead, are you taking away the Glory from God? How is God of a God in the godhead calculation?

Doctrines of man are a no-no.
Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30:5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

In Deuteronomy 6:4, the word for "one" is "echad" which denotes a plurality in unity; such as in "one bunch of bananas".

John 20:17, are you aware that scripture declares that God has a God and has a Father also (Hebrews 1:8-9 (kjv), Revelation 1:6 (kjv))?

I would also point out to you that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). However, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Therefore I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19).

If you cannot say that Jesus is the Lord in light of the fact that the Father is the one Lord of holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, Matthew11:25, Luke 10:21), then you do not have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3); and therefore you are not saved (Romans 8:9).

I would also point out that the holy scriptures teach that Jehovah has a Maker (Romans 1:3, Isaiah 45:11).

 

[MalikB]

2 Peter 3:16

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


It's sad that I am even addressing some of these simple verses, but unfortunately people like to pull verses out of context to make them fit their corrupt ideologies.

I've proven this many times, but being called "God" alone does not give you the same authority as The Most High God. If it did then we might as well be praying to the Jews that were going to stone Jesus:


John 10:33-34

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


Psalm 82:6

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


There is multiple places in scripture where people that represented The Most High were referred to as "god" and "lord"... these titles do not make you "The Most High"




Revelation 1:5-6

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


This is not saying that God has a Father. The word's "God" and "Father" are both the same person in verse six.... Who the Messiah calls his Father is also God. Many bible versions translate the phrase as "his God and Father". Since trinitarians believe that God is three people... If God had a Father, then would that not be a fourth person? Or maybe this means The Father of the trinity is also part of the trinity.... the whole concept is illogical and doesn't line up with scripture.



People with religious ideological agendas love to pick and choose which verses they take literal and which ones to mold into something that fits their doctrine...


The Father and son here are two distinct beings, both being called Lord:

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


This was quoted later by The Messiah:

Mark 12:35-36

35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.




Ephesians 4:5-6

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

If both Lord and God is referring to this trinity, why aren't these words in just one verse? Why doesn't it say "One Lord, God and Father of all?".... Because in this context Paul is using the word "Lord" to specifically refer to The Messiah... Hence why there is a separate verse for The Father. It's poor scholarship to just draw conclusions based off of a few titles in scripture while disregarding the context.

If the evidence for being part of the trinity is being called "Lord" or "God".... then there is a lot more people in scripture to add to this list of trinity persons.


There is a pattern here... Using one verse to support the trinity, and leaving out the very next verse which is evidence against it:

1 Corinthians 12:5-6

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

...Same as Ephesians... Verse 5 is speaking of The Messiah, verse 6 of The Most High God. Simple stuff. If "God" and "Lord" were both just titles that incorporated the trinity, this could have been combined into one verse.



Isaiah 45:10-11

10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

The word "his" in verse 11 is clearly speaking about the person in verse 10... not The Most High.

Yet another verse taken out of context and twisted. You accuse The Most High יהוה of having a maker, yet ironically speak about who is going to be saved?

Fallacious

 

[CS1]

the idea that Holy Spirit can be broken down Holy, Spirit: Spirit = Pneuma = Ruach = Qi = Energy

Is the most laughable eisegesis I have ever seen.

It completely relies on Word games and not on the Context or the authorial intent where the word Holy Spirit is used.

The word spirit in Hebrew means rûaḥ which the correct translation is "like a breath of wind this same word is used to describe the spirit of man too. Yet for God in Genesis 1:2 for God and Genesis 41:8 for man. But this is the earliest revelation of God and man's understanding of God after the fall has yet to be seen as we know HIM today. The Breath of God is all human intellect could even understand as the word of God progresses our knowing God and HIS divine Nature is revealed to us through HIS word and Creation.

Holy Spirit is God whom we see in the word of God speaking through, speaking to, and coming upon and being in a person.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:31


Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

blasphēmia in Greek is =

1. slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another, 's good name
2. specifically, impious and reproachful speech injurious to the divine majesty

None of which can be done to wind or energy. Jesus said speaking against the Person of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin.

There is more The Pharisees said, " Jesus cast out devils by the power of a devil".

the word used was daimonion and then even named it as beelzeboul devil of waste or dung.
Jesus addressed the person of the Holy Spirit to the Pharisees and not as the wind or energy but the Person who can be offended.

There is a grammatical reason why's" spirit and "S" Spirit are used contextually in the word of God

God is unseen and yet we know HE is nearby the word of HIS Spirit. The word of God never calls the Spirit of the Living God energy.

Just not there. Qi = Energy was added and not in context to the Holy Spirit. but what is seen:

Power: śārâ Hebrew meaning: contend, have power, contend with, persist, exert oneself, persevere

kōaḥ

1. power (of God)

in Greek:

dynamic strength power, ability

None of this is used in the Old or New as energy.

God is Spirit those who worship Him must do so in Spirit and truth. The improper use of words to create a false narrative, to support an unbiblical position. to simulate human reasoning, one must lower the Spirit of the living God for the fleshly mind to make sense of the Divine Nature of God; is arrogance AND UNBIBLICAL.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed. Jesus called the Holy Spirit " The Comforter " paraklētos in Greek meaning:

summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid. NOT energy. WE must keep in context the correct interpretation and not interject a falsehood that can not be supported by the word of God. The human rationale is not the starting point of proper Biblical interpretation. God is Spirit not "s" but "S" HE is a Person in the Eternal Godhead and when Speaking of HIS Spirit we must do so with humility and reverence, not speaking profanely or making common using human reasoning to lower HIS Divinity.

 

[CS1]

the idea that Holy Spirit can be broken down Holy, Spirit: Spirit = Pneuma = Ruach = Qi = Energy

Is the most laughable eisegesis I have ever seen.

It completely relies on Word games and not on the Context or the authorial intent where the word Holy Spirit is used.

The word spirit in Hebrew means rûaḥ which the correct translation is "like a breath of wind this same word is used to describe the spirit of man too. Yet for God in Genesis 1:2 for God and Genesis 41:8 for man. But this is the earliest revelation of God and man's understanding of God after the fall has yet to be seen as we know HIM today. The Breath of God is all human intellect could even understand as the word of God progresses our knowing God and HIS divine Nature is revealed to us through HIS word and Creation.

Holy Spirit is God whom we see in the word of God speaking through, speaking to, and coming upon and being in a person.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:31


Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

blasphēmia in Greek is =

1. slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another, 's good name
2. specifically, impious and reproachful speech injurious to the divine majesty

None of which can be done to wind or energy. Jesus said speaking against the Person of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin.

There is more The Pharisees said, " Jesus cast out devils by the power of a devil".

the word used was daimonion and then even named it as beelzeboul devil of waste or dung.
Jesus addressed the person of the Holy Spirit to the Pharisees and not as the wind or energy but the Person who can be offended.

There is a grammatical reason why's" spirit and "S" Spirit are used contextually in the word of God

God is unseen and yet we know HE is nearby the word of HIS Spirit. The word of God never calls the Spirit of the Living God energy.

Just not there. Qi = Energy was added and not in context to the Holy Spirit. but what is seen:

Power: śārâ Hebrew meaning: contend, have power, contend with, persist, exert oneself, persevere

kōaḥ

1. power (of God)

in Greek:

dynamic strength power, ability

None of this is used in the Old or New as energy.

God is Spirit those who worship Him must do so in Spirit and truth. The improper use of words to create a false narrative, to support an unbiblical position. to simulate human reasoning, one must lower the Spirit of the living God for the fleshly mind to make sense of the Divine Nature of God; is arrogance AND UNBIBLICAL.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed. Jesus called the Holy Spirit " The Comforter " paraklētos in Greek meaning:

summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid. NOT energy. WE must keep in context the correct interpretation and not interject a falsehood that can not be supported by the word of God. The human rationale is not the starting point of proper Biblical interpretation. God is Spirit not "s" but "S" HE is a Person in the Eternal Godhead and when Speaking of HIS Spirit we must do so with humility and reverence, not speaking profanely or making common using human reasoning to lower HIS Divinity.

Spirit = Pneuma = Ruach = Qi = Energy
yes, this is bad Grammer above and even worst ex·e·ge·sis

 

[MalikB]

The most laughable eisegesis is the trinity doctrine... The "official" doctrine is that you have three distinct, separate co-equal persons that together share an essence making them the definition of "God":

Person #1 - Father
Person#2 - Son
Person #3 - Holy Spirit

So Person 1 sends Person 3 to impregnate a woman with Person 2.... yet according to Person 2, Person 1 is His Father??

Although they are all supposed to equal... Person 1 is the only one that knows when Person 2 will be returning, Person 2 gives all of the credit to Person 1 and says that Person 1 is greater than him. Person 1 and Person 2 have full blown conversations with each other and with mankind, while Person 3 gets no throne in heaven, no name, and not even mentioned in any of the epistle greetings with Person 1 and 2.

There are so many scriptures that contradict the trinity doctrine, that people that say they believe in it don't even agree on what it is. All you have to do is just look at the first few pages of this thread. The one that started the thread keeps saying that the Son and The Most High (יהוה) are the same person... when the official trinity doctrine states that they are separate persons. Trinitarians can't even agree on their own beliefs.


Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

EN'ERGY, noun [Gr. work.]

1. Internal or inherent power; the power of operating, whether exerted or not; as men possessing energies sometimes suffer them to lie inactive. Danger will rouse the dormant energies of our natures into action.

2. Power exerted; vigorous operation; force; vigor. God, by his Almighty energy called the universe into existence. The administration of the laws requires energy in the magistrate.

3. Effectual operation; efficacy; strength or force producing the effect.

Beg the blessed Jesus to give an energy to your imperfect prayers, by his most powerful intercession.

4. Strength of expression; force of utterance; life; spirit; emphasis. The language of Lord Chatham is remarkable for its energy



There are three components that make up the human:


1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell


Body - We all know that this is the flesh. This is what allows us to experience the physical world.

Soul - This is your mind/personality/identity..... what makes you unique. This is what you loose if you receive the 2nd death. You simply cease to exist as an individual mind.

Spirit - This is qi/lifeforce/energy.... the God within us. This energy can manifest in many ways, but is controlled by a mind.... whether that be by man controlling the energy that was lent to us.... Or by the Most High using His energy as He sees fit. Energy can not be created or destroyed.... It belongs to the eternal Most High God.

 

[CS1]

The most laughable eisegesis is the trinity doctrine... The "official" doctrine is that you have three distinct, separate co-equal persons that together share an essence making them the definition of "God":

Person #1 - Father
Person#2 - Son
Person #3 - Holy Spirit

So Person 1 sends Person 3 to impregnate a woman with Person 2.... yet according to Person 2, Person 1 is His Father??

Although they are all supposed to equal... Person 1 is the only one that knows when Person 2 will be returning, Person 2 gives all of the credit to Person 1 and says that Person 1 is greater than him. Person 1 and Person 2 have full blown conversations with each other and with mankind, while Person 3 gets no throne in heaven, no name, and not even mentioned in any of the epistle greetings with Person 1 and 2.

There are so many scriptures that contradict the trinity doctrine, that people that say they believe in it don't even agree on what it is. All you have to do is just look at the first few pages of this thread. The one that started the thread keeps saying that the Son and The Most High (יהוה) are the same person... when the official trinity doctrine states that they are separate persons. Trinitarians can't even agree on their own beliefs.


Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

EN'ERGY, noun [Gr. work.]

1. Internal or inherent power; the power of operating, whether exerted or not; as men possessing energies sometimes suffer them to lie inactive. Danger will rouse the dormant energies of our natures into action.

2. Power exerted; vigorous operation; force; vigor. God, by his Almighty energy called the universe into existence. The administration of the laws requires energy in the magistrate.

3. Effectual operation; efficacy; strength or force producing the effect.

Beg the blessed Jesus to give an energy to your imperfect prayers, by his most powerful intercession.

4. Strength of expression; force of utterance; life; spirit; emphasis. The language of Lord Chatham is remarkable for its energy



There are three components that make up the human:


1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell


Body - We all know that this is the flesh. This is what allows us to experience the physical world.

Soul - This is your mind/personality/identity..... what makes you unique. This is what you loose if you receive the 2nd death. You simply cease to exist as an individual mind.

Spirit - This is qi/lifeforce/energy.... the God within us. This energy can manifest in many ways, but is controlled by a mind.... whether that be by man controlling the energy that was lent to us.... Or by the Most High using His energy as He sees fit. Energy can not be created or destroyed.... It belongs to the eternal Most High God.

Coe-Equal: Person #1 - Father Person#2 - Son Person #3 - Holy Spirit.
The order in which you had them was wrong.


Secondly, the concept of the Trinity is well seen in the Scriptures. We do not reduce any persons of the Godhead to fix our narrative.
This is what you are doing.


The fact that you
Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

EN'ERGY, noun [Gr. work.]

To explain the Holy Spirit and God is very telling. The word "Energy" is not contextual when speaking of the Holy Spirit in scriptures as I proved earlier. Using a dictionary to make one word elite in scripture is improper bible interpretation. God Himself when HE was asked by Moses who do I say that has sent me? God said IAM that IAM. This is not translated "IAM" to mean " an Energy of energies"

No.

Ex 3:14 IAM that IAM = the Self-Existent One who has always been. God has never referred to Himself as energy but as a Person.

But some know better than God and His word. And think using a dictionary bring authority to the false narrative, it does not.

 

[Justified]

I will attempt to explain the Trinity with the following things in mind.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv), Romans 15:6, Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33), and the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

With this in mind, I encourage the reader to interpret 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 and Ephesians 4:4-6.

That being said, there are distinctions between the members of the Trinity.

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh.

The Son is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24) dwelling in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 john 1:7).

The Holy Ghost is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 7:39); after having lived a human life in the Person of the Son (see Luke 23:46); released to the Father in eternity from the human body of the Son; and who also descends into time in order to produce holy scripture (1 Peter 1:11) and to work within the church in order to win souls to Jesus Christ.

The Father, in the descending into time to take on an added nature of human flesh, did not VACATE ETERNITY.

So, when Jesus releases His Spirit (see John 14:7-11) back into eternity, there is now one God existing beside Himself in eternity; as there are two distinct Persons in the Father and the Holy Ghost who are infinite in nature.

The Son also being infinite in nature in His Deity; however in His humanity, which has received a glorified human body likened unto the angels (Matthew 22:30), He is of a finite nature and as He said, "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28); while as concerning His Deity He is equal to the Father (John 5:18).

For I contend that the Son is the Son in the reality that there is a hypostatic union of the two natures of humanity and Deity.

I also contend that the Son was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); but that He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) in the Person of the Holy Ghost.

What you are putting forward here is not even close to biblical. Just because you string a number of unrelated verses together does not prove anything. Some of the things that you have said border on heresy.

 

[Justified]

Sometimes I feel like the difference between oneness and trinitarianism is semantics, or a disagreement over the word "person".

If you think it is just a matter of semantics then you need to look more closely into oneness. They have a modalistic view of God that is not biblical.
They view the Trinity not as three distinct persons but rather as three modes or forms of activity under which God manifests Himself.

 

[CS1]

I will attempt to explain the Trinity with the following things in mind.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv), Romans 15:6, Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33), and the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

With this in mind, I encourage the reader to interpret 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 and Ephesians 4:4-6.

That being said, there are distinctions between the members of the Trinity.

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh.

The Son is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24) dwelling in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 john 1:7).

The Holy Ghost is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 7:39); after having lived a human life in the Person of the Son (see Luke 23:46); released to the Father in eternity from the human body of the Son; and who also descends into time in order to produce holy scripture (1 Peter 1:11) and to work within the church in order to win souls to Jesus Christ.

The Father, in the descending into time to take on an added nature of human flesh, did not VACATE ETERNITY.

So, when Jesus releases His Spirit (see John 14:7-11) back into eternity, there is now one God existing beside Himself in eternity; as there are two distinct Persons in the Father and the Holy Ghost who are infinite in nature.

The Son also being infinite in nature in His Deity; however in His humanity, which has received a glorified human body likened unto the angels (Matthew 22:30), He is of a finite nature and as He said, "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28); while as concerning His Deity He is equal to the Father (John 5:18).

For I contend that the Son is the Son in the reality that there is a hypostatic union of the two natures of humanity and Deity.

I also contend that the Son was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); but that He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) in the Person of the Holy Ghost.

I will say it is very hard to explain the unexplainable mystery of the Godhead. If we study God the Father we see God. IF we study God the Son we see God. IF we Study God the Holy Spirit we see GOD.

This is what we see in scriptures and by creation as Roman 1 says " even the Eternal Godhead.

WE do not even need to attempt to explain the Godhead because it is spiritually discerned.
IF a Person denies Christ as God they are not saved and cannot understand the Godhead. If they deny The Holy Spirit is God they are not saved and cannot apprehend it. No one can fully know the full nature of the Godhead. Some think they can. Not the God of the Bible.

To deep, too big, and Infinite for finite man.

 

[MalikB]

Coe-Equal: Person #1 - Father Person#2 - Son Person #3 - Holy Spirit.
The order in which you had them was wrong.

It doesn't matter what entity I gave which number. They were only given numbers to show the interactions between them and how ridiculous the trinity doctrine his.

Secondly, the concept of the Trinity is well seen in the Scriptures. We do not reduce any persons of the Godhead to fix our narrative.

Believing in the trinity requires a bunch of misinterpretations... and trinitarians don't even agree with each other on the doctrine.

To explain the Holy Spirit and God is very telling. The word "Energy" is not contextual when speaking of the Holy Spirit in scriptures as I proved earlier. Using a dictionary to make one word elite in scripture is improper bible interpretation. God Himself when HE was asked by Moses who do I say that has sent me? God said IAM that IAM. This is not translated "IAM" to mean " an Energy of energies"

No.

Ex 3:14 IAM that IAM = the Self-Existent One who has always been. God has never referred to Himself as energy but as a Person.

But some know better than God and His word. And think using a dictionary bring authority to the false narrative, it does not.

You seem to have a problem comprehending what I say... maybe you should not be ministering. You are using the word "energy" to replace "God"..... or "to exist". I never said it meant that. I used the word to "energy" as a substitute for the word "spirit" ...not for the word "God". God's spirit is God's energy.

Sure God is energy... but that word alone does not define Him. God is also truth.... God is love.... God is Peace.... God is ALL THINGS.

Do you not comprehend?

 

[CS1]

It doesn't matter what entity I gave which number. They were only given numbers to show the interactions between them and how ridiculous the trinity doctrine his.




Believing in the trinity requires a bunch of misinterpretations... and trinitarians don't even agree with each other on the doctrine.






You seem to have a problem comprehending what I say... maybe you should not be ministering. You are using the word "energy" to replace "God"..... or "to exist". I never said it meant that. I used the word to "energy" as a substitute for the word "spirit" ...not for the word "God". God's spirit is God's energy.

Sure God is energy... but that word alone does not define Him. God is also truth.... God is love.... God is Peace.... God is ALL THINGS.

Do you not comprehend?

too bad, you had not one scripture to support your disagreement it's noted .

 

[CS1]

It doesn't matter what entity I gave which number. They were only given numbers to show the interactions between them and how ridiculous the trinity doctrine his.




Believing in the trinity requires a bunch of misinterpretations... and trinitarians don't even agree with each other on the doctrine.






You seem to have a problem comprehending what I say... maybe you should not be ministering. You are using the word "energy" to replace "God"..... or "to exist". I never said it meant that. I used the word to "energy" as a substitute for the word "spirit" ...not for the word "God". God's spirit is God's energy.

Sure God is energy... but that word alone does not define Him. God is also truth.... God is love.... God is Peace.... God is ALL THINGS.

Do you not comprehend?

If you want to go personal as I have not with you I have stated my position from the word of God as I see it. To attack my God calling as a minister is below the belt. I will accept you are incapable of refuting the word of God presented contextually OF the Eternal Godhead never described as an energy. Please continue with your insults

 

[justbyfaith]

What you are putting forward here is not even close to biblical. Just because you string a number of unrelated verses together does not prove anything. Some of the things that you have said border on heresy.

Don't just take my word for it...be a Berean and study out the verses to see whether or not they really do substantiate my statements.

If they do, then what I am saying cannot be heresy.

But even Paul the apostle was accused of being a heretic by the Jewish people (Acts 24:14).

 

[justbyfaith]

2 Peter 3:16

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


It's sad that I am even addressing some of these simple verses, but unfortunately people like to pull verses out of context to make them fit their corrupt ideologies.

I've proven this many times, but being called "God" alone does not give you the same authority as The Most High God. If it did then we might as well be praying to the Jews that were going to stone Jesus:


John 10:33-34

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


Psalm 82:6

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


There is multiple places in scripture where people that represented The Most High were referred to as "god" and "lord"... these titles do not make you "The Most High"




Revelation 1:5-6

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


This is not saying that God has a Father. The word's "God" and "Father" are both the same person in verse six.... Who the Messiah calls his Father is also God. Many bible versions translate the phrase as "his God and Father". Since trinitarians believe that God is three people... If God had a Father, then would that not be a fourth person? Or maybe this means The Father of the trinity is also part of the trinity.... the whole concept is illogical and doesn't line up with scripture.



People with religious ideological agendas love to pick and choose which verses they take literal and which ones to mold into something that fits their doctrine...


The Father and son here are two distinct beings, both being called Lord:

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


This was quoted later by The Messiah:

Mark 12:35-36

35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.




Ephesians 4:5-6

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

If both Lord and God is referring to this trinity, why aren't these words in just one verse? Why doesn't it say "One Lord, God and Father of all?".... Because in this context Paul is using the word "Lord" to specifically refer to The Messiah... Hence why there is a separate verse for The Father. It's poor scholarship to just draw conclusions based off of a few titles in scripture while disregarding the context.

If the evidence for being part of the trinity is being called "Lord" or "God".... then there is a lot more people in scripture to add to this list of trinity persons.


There is a pattern here... Using one verse to support the trinity, and leaving out the very next verse which is evidence against it:

1 Corinthians 12:5-6

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

...Same as Ephesians... Verse 5 is speaking of The Messiah, verse 6 of The Most High God. Simple stuff. If "God" and "Lord" were both just titles that incorporated the trinity, this could have been combined into one verse.



Isaiah 45:10-11

10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

The word "his" in verse 11 is clearly speaking about the person in verse 10... not The Most High.

Yet another verse taken out of context and twisted. You accuse The Most High יהוה of having a maker, yet ironically speak about who is going to be saved?

Fallacious

1Co 8:5, For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here, capitalization does matter; because there are many gods and many lords; but there is only one God and only one Lord.

It should be clear, also, that there is one Lord in holy scriprture (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). However, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord, except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord.

If, in light of the fact that the Father is the one Lord of holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), you cannot say that Jesus is the Lord, then you do not have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3); and therefore are not saved (Romans 8:9).

 

[justbyfaith]

The most laughable eisegesis is the trinity doctrine... The "official" doctrine is that you have three distinct, separate co-equal persons that together share an essence making them the definition of "God":

Person #1 - Father
Person#2 - Son
Person #3 - Holy Spirit

So Person 1 sends Person 3 to impregnate a woman with Person 2.... yet according to Person 2, Person 1 is His Father??

Although they are all supposed to equal... Person 1 is the only one that knows when Person 2 will be returning, Person 2 gives all of the credit to Person 1 and says that Person 1 is greater than him. Person 1 and Person 2 have full blown conversations with each other and with mankind, while Person 3 gets no throne in heaven, no name, and not even mentioned in any of the epistle greetings with Person 1 and 2.

There are so many scriptures that contradict the trinity doctrine, that people that say they believe in it don't even agree on what it is. All you have to do is just look at the first few pages of this thread. The one that started the thread keeps saying that the Son and The Most High (יהוה) are the same person... when the official trinity doctrine states that they are separate persons. Trinitarians can't even agree on their own beliefs.


Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

EN'ERGY, noun [Gr. work.]

1. Internal or inherent power; the power of operating, whether exerted or not; as men possessing energies sometimes suffer them to lie inactive. Danger will rouse the dormant energies of our natures into action.

2. Power exerted; vigorous operation; force; vigor. God, by his Almighty energy called the universe into existence. The administration of the laws requires energy in the magistrate.

3. Effectual operation; efficacy; strength or force producing the effect.

Beg the blessed Jesus to give an energy to your imperfect prayers, by his most powerful intercession.

4. Strength of expression; force of utterance; life; spirit; emphasis. The language of Lord Chatham is remarkable for its energy



There are three components that make up the human:


1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell


Body - We all know that this is the flesh. This is what allows us to experience the physical world.

Soul - This is your mind/personality/identity..... what makes you unique. This is what you loose if you receive the 2nd death. You simply cease to exist as an individual mind.

Spirit - This is qi/lifeforce/energy.... the God within us. This energy can manifest in many ways, but is controlled by a mind.... whether that be by man controlling the energy that was lent to us.... Or by the Most High using His energy as He sees fit. Energy can not be created or destroyed.... It belongs to the eternal Most High God.

Person 1 and Person 3 are one and the same.

For there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and the Holy Ghost is also the Spirit (John 7:39).

Person 2 has an added nature of human flesh; and in that nature is less than equal to Person 1. However, in the nature of His Spirit, Person 2 is equal to Person 1 (John 5:18).

 

[justbyfaith]

I will say it is very hard to explain the unexplainable mystery of the Godhead. If we study God the Father we see God. IF we study God the Son we see God. IF we Study God the Holy Spirit we see GOD.

This is what we see in scriptures and by creation as Roman 1 says " even the Eternal Godhead.

WE do not even need to attempt to explain the Godhead because it is spiritually discerned.
IF a Person denies Christ as God they are not saved and cannot understand the Godhead. If they deny The Holy Spirit is God they are not saved and cannot apprehend it. No one can fully know the full nature of the Godhead. Some think they can. Not the God of the Bible.

To deep, too big, and Infinite for finite man.

Col 2:8, Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.