Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Impossible to find salvation through the law because of the weakness of the flesh. And you switched from your argument of the law to faith. Of course the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

If this were true then none of the OT saints born under the Law could be saved! All the elect OT saints born under Law certainly battled the flesh, but the efficacy of God's grace (including his gifts of faith and repentance) guaranteed their victory. The reason why Israel was for the most part an apostate, rebellious, idolatrous nation is because the [gospel] message they heard from God's prophets (including Moses) was not united with faith (Heb 4:2).

Faith and Law are not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, for any NC believer the two are perfectly consistent with each other; for the believer knows that he cannot be saved by obeying the law absent any faith! Christians love God's law because they handle the law correctly. They want to obey the Law because they love the Lord and trust him -- and not because they are trying to win God's favor. By God's grace, I have the same attitude towards God holy Law as the Psalmist does in Ps 119, for example.

 

[Cameron143]

If this were true then none of the OT saints born under the Law could be saved! All the elect OT saints born under Law certainly battled the flesh, but the efficacy of God's grace (including his gifts of faith and repentance) guaranteed their victory. The reason why Israel was for the most part an apostate, rebellious, idolatrous nation is because the [gospel] message they heard from God's prophets (including Moses) was not united with faith (Heb 4:2).

Faith and Law are not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, for any NC believer the two are perfectly consistent with each other; for the believer knows that he cannot be saved by obeying the law absent any faith! Christians love God's law because they handle the law correctly. They want to obey the Law because they love the Lord and trust him -- and not because they are trying to win God's favor. By God's grace, I have the same attitude towards God holy Law as the Psalmist does in Ps 119, for example.

It's not so. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. By works of the law has no flesh ever been justified.

 

[Magenta]

It's not so. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. By works of the law has no flesh ever been justified.

Galatians 2 verse 16 A man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

 

[lrs68]

But Yeshua is not in Adam's lineage! He's in Eve's! If Adam was saved after the Fall, why doesn't Jesus descend from Adam's seed, instead of Eve's?

It's only fitting that Adam is listed in Luke's lineage since he was created by God directly -- not procreated as the rest of the people included in the lineage.

Furthermore, Eve is not included in any lineage in the NT -- yet, the Messiah descended from her!

The woman's seed is not about Eve because all of her children required Adam's seed.

The serpents seed is about the Nephilim.

The Hebrew word that English translation made into serpent is the same word for Angel of Light. Hence when Ezekiel went to Tyre and addressed the Cherubim that was made beautiful and was in the Garden.

 

[Rufus]

It's not so. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. By works of the law has no flesh ever been justified.

I agree! The Law can never save anyone. But that doesn't mean that law and grace are incompatible with each other! The Law is good, holy and righteous. And we saints are enjoined to learn how to use the Law lawfully -- which, of course, would be by grace through faith.

 

[Rufus]

The woman's seed is not about Eve because all of her children required Adam's seed.

The serpents seed is about the Nephilim.

The Hebrew word that English translation made into serpent is the same word for Angel of Light. Hence when Ezekiel went to Tyre and addressed the Cherubim that was made beautiful and was in the Garden.

Wrong! The Serpent's seed is about the devil! And the woman's seed is about her spiritual seed. Physical seed is not ultimately in view in Gen 3:15! After all, the devil does not procreate; but he is the spiritual father of all unbelievers, just as Abraham is the spiritual father of all believers.

 

[lrs68]

Wrong! The Serpent's seed is about the devil! And the woman's seed is about her spiritual seed. Physical seed is not ultimately in view in Gen 3:15! After all, the devil does not procreate; but he is the spiritual father of all unbelievers, just as Abraham is the spiritual father of all believers.

You have Fallen Angels and then you have the offspring called Nephilim that their souls become what at death?

This has been around for about 4k years and been a Hebrew knowledge that everyone in the Bible knows about.

 

[Magenta]

Wrong! The Serpent's seed is about the devil! And the woman's seed is about her spiritual seed. Physical seed is not ultimately in view in Gen 3:15! After all, the devil does not procreate; but he is the spiritual father of all unbelievers, just as Abraham is the spiritual father of all believers.

Although she does conceive and that would mean her ovum was used, otherwise Mary was just a surrogate.

Her ovum being/also known as her seed.

 

[Rufus]

You have Fallen Angels and then you have the offspring called Nephilim that their souls become what at death?

This has been around for about 4k years and been a Hebrew knowledge that everyone in the Bible knows about.

But that's not what is in view in Gen 3:15. In fact, it's not even about the serpent who the devil possessed. It's all about the devil and the woman...and her seed and his seed. Christ will one day crush the head of the devil -- not the serpent's or "Nephilim". Connect the dots with these passages: Mat 3:7; 12:34; 13:38; Jn 8:44; Act 13:10; 1Jn 3:8, 10, 12. A person is either a child of God or a child of the evil one.

God very clearly decreed Eve's salvation when he promised the devil that He would put enmity between him and the woman. But no such decree was made on behalf of Adam! Therefore, Adam must be of the devil! And this accounts for the first prophecy of the virgin birth in Gen 3:15, whereby Adam is again left out in the cold. If Adam were a godly believer, why would God bypass him altogether? And why does Adam have the rather dubious honor of being the only saved person in scripture who is contrasted with the Last Adam!

 

[lrs68]

But that's not what is in view in Gen 3:15. In fact, it's not even about the serpent who the devil possessed. It's all about the devil and the woman...and her seed and his seed. Christ will one day crush the head of the devil -- not the serpent's or "Nephilim". Connect the dots with these passages: Mat 3:7; 12:34; 13:38; Jn 8:44; Act 13:10; 1Jn 3:8, 10, 12. A person is either a child of God or a child of the evil one.

God very clearly decreed Eve's salvation when he promised the devil that He would put enmity between him and the woman. But no such decree was made on behalf of Adam! Therefore, Adam must be of the devil! And this accounts for the first prophecy of the virgin birth in Gen 3:15, whereby Adam is again left out in the cold. If Adam were a godly believer, why would God bypass him altogether? And why does Adam have the rather dubious honor of being the only saved person in scripture who is contrasted with the Last Adam!

Well, this is the very and I mean very first time someone has ever connected things of this matter in the way that you have. I have never seen it before. There's literally no commentary from the average Preacher, the Scholars, the Theologians, the Professors, anyone including the ancient and present Hebrews that follow Yeshua. You are the absolute lone wolf in this belief and connection. Honestly speaking here, I am intrigued because your Reformed stance is spot on towards most other Reformed believers and then this is so far into left field it's like its own enigma.

I personally don't know how you were to ever connect the dots like you did but I don't see, like everyone else but you, that God speaking to the Adversary in Genesis 3 is talking about the future Messiah and the Virgin Mary. Eve literally has nothing to do with this. She still was punished in child birth like Adam with physical labor.

But anyway, your views are astonishing because to everyone else they don't make sense but to you they do. And that's what interests me most because what kind of brain could arrive at the views you do when literally no one else is even remotely close to seeing what you do?

 

[cv5]

So the super-determinists do not see FREE WILL being exemplified here? Tragic indeed.

[Mat 21:28 KJV]
But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

[Mat 21:29 KJV]
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

[Mat 21:30 KJV]
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.

[Mat 21:31 KJV]
Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

 

[Rufus]

Well, this is the very and I mean very first time someone has ever connected things of this matter in the way that you have. I have never seen it before. There's literally no commentary from the average Preacher, the Scholars, the Theologians, the Professors, anyone including the ancient and present Hebrews that follow Yeshua. You are the absolute lone wolf in this belief and connection. Honestly speaking here, I am intrigued because your Reformed stance is spot on towards most other Reformed believers and then this is so far into left field it's like its own enigma.

I personally don't know how you were to ever connect the dots like you did but I don't see, like everyone else but you, that God speaking to the Adversary in Genesis 3 is talking about the future Messiah and the Virgin Mary. Eve literally has nothing to do with this. She still was punished in child birth like Adam with physical labor.

But anyway, your views are astonishing because to everyone else they don't make sense but to you they do. And that's what interests me most because what kind of brain could arrive at the views you do when literally no one else is even remotely close to seeing what you do?

I guess you didn't understand the passages I cited? I'm equally astounded that you apparently aren't aware that there are only two kinds of spiritual children in the world: The children of God and the children of the devil. And Eve has everything to do with Gen 3:15. After all, God reconciled HER to himself; He literally rescued her from the clutches of the evil one. And He did that "horrible, dastardly" deed without respectfully requesting her "freewill" permission first, so in this post-fall account we have the first example of God "forcing" someone into his kingdom.) In fact, He actually adopted her into his family, without her permission, when he reconciled her to Himself! However, it is Adam who has absolutely nothing to do with the decree in Gen 3:15. He was unceremoniously excluded, for God placed no enmity between Adam and Satan. Therefore, the enmity between God and Adam remained in place!

 

[lrs68]

I guess you didn't understand the passages I cited? I'm equally astounded that you apparently aren't aware that there are only two kinds of spiritual children in the world: The children of God and the children of the devil. And Eve has everything to do with Gen 3:15. After all, God reconciled HER to himself; He literally rescued her from the clutches of the evil one. And He did that "horrible, dastardly" deed without respectfully requesting her "freewill" permission first, so in this post-fall account we have the first example of God "forcing" someone into his kingdom.) In fact, He actually adopted her into his family, without her permission, when he reconciled her to Himself! However, it is Adam who has absolutely nothing to do with the decree in Gen 3:15. He was unceremoniously excluded, for God placed no enmity between Adam and Satan. Therefore, the enmity between God and Adam remained in place!

I do understand but everyone has always believed Genesis 3 is about when Jesus crushes Satan on the Cross but you.

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="cv5, post: 5514042, member: 277646"]So the super-determinists do not see FREE WILL being exemplified here? Tragic indeed.

[Mat 21:28 KJV]
But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

[Mat 21:29 KJV]
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

[Mat 21:30 KJV]
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.

[Mat 21:31 KJV]
Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. [/QUOTE]

I see a choice being made by the son. You merely ASSUME that the son made that choice entirely by the power of his own "freewill", apart from any enabling grace.

 

[Magenta]

Proverbs 19 verse 21 Jeremiah 10 verse 23b ~ Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail. No one who walks directs his own steps.

 

[Rufus]

I do understand but everyone has always believed Genesis 3 is about when Jesus crushes Satan on the Cross but you.

It's about that, as well! This is why Gen 3:15 is often referred to as the woman's [primary] seed which is the promised Messiah; but that doesn't mean that she didn't have other seed, as well. There's a reason why Adam named her "Eve", for he knew she would "become the mother of all the living" (Gen 3:20), i.e. all the spiritual living! Clearly, Adam knew he would not become the father of all the living!

 

[Rufus]

The Efficacy of God's Saving Grace

There's a passage in scripture wherein Paul poignantly attests to the nature of God's saving grace; and I think many of us miss what he's saying because his comments come in the context of the central passage in all scripture that pertains to Christ's resurrection and its vitally important significance. So, it's easy to gloss over this short passage that is embedded into 1Cor 15. Here's the passage in all its God-centered glory:

1 Cor 15:9-10
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them — yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
NIV

I sense that Paul was just bursting forth in his praise for God's saving grace! Three times in v.10, Paul credits God and gives him glory for the grace He bestowed on Paul!

1. I am what I am by God's grace
2. God's grace was effectual in the apostle (turning "b" part into a positive statement)
3. Finally, God grace ultimately resulted in Paul working harder than any other evangelist

Paul takes no credit or glory whatsoever for his own salvation -- something that FWers here cannot do since in their universe it's the sinner's "freewill" that is ultimately efficacious and accounts for them being in Christ. God doesn't actually save anyone. He simply provides "all" with "equal opportunity" to "freely" choose to become saved. Therefore, when a sinner seizes upon this [so-called] God-given opportunity, this decision triggers yet another opportunity -- this time for God to seize and to respond to that choice positively.

FWT turns the precious truth of the Gospel on its head! Instead of God's grace being effectual in salvation, man's "freewill" decision is. But Paul takes zero credit for being a changed, transformed person, gives God's grace all the credit for its efficacy, and he attributes God's grace as being the ultimate effectual impetus behind his evangelistic efforts.

 

[studier]

I wonder how many men in history can claim this special type of grace evangelism and stationing by the resurrected Lord Himself:

NKJ Acts 9:1-9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" 5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting1. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

As Paul says in the quoted 1Cor15:9-10, referring back to this time in which he was persecuting the church, this grace of the Lord was not empty/without result and in the grace of God that was with him he toiled/labored more excessively than all of them. Paul also identifies in other letters that his Apostleship was by God's grace.

 

[Magenta]

It seems someone has forgotten that the first evangelist Jesus sent after His resurrection was a woman.​

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[Rufus]

[QUOTE="studier, post: 5514295, member: 330481"]I wonder how many men in history can claim this special type of grace evangelism and stationing by the resurrected Lord Himself:

NKJ Acts 9:1-9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" 5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting1. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

As Paul says in the quoted 1Cor15:9-10, referring back to this time in which he was persecuting the church, this grace of the Lord was not empty/without result and in the grace of God that was with him he toiled/labored more excessively than all of them. Paul also identifies in other letters that his Apostleship was by God's grace. [/QUOTE]

I, too, wonder! I wonder if you will ever grow a backbone and become a man. Still haven't figured out how to answer the rhetorical question in Jer 13:23? It's really a simply "yes" or "no" answer