Understanding God’s election

[studier]

And precisely how do those in bondage to the world, the flesh and devil "enter into Christ by grace through faith"? How can it be said that anyone enters in by God's grace since his grace/power does not effectuate anyone's salvation? And since this is the case according to FWs, then it can only be said that ultimately "we enter into Christ" by our own power.

God's Word convinces the thinking mind still capable of being convinced. That's why there is sufficient discussion in the Text re: Christians proclaiming and instructing God's Word to persuade/convince and the drawing/enabling being by the Word the Father was teaching through His Son/the Word in order for men to hear and learn > come. > believe. That same concept is alive and active today with Christ's men proclaiming the Good News Message/Word of the resurrected Christ, the Holy Spirit here convincing since Jesus Christ ascended, and Christ drawing.

I seriously do not get this "our own power" point of view. Faith is submission. God's concerned that we're submitting to Him in our own power after He has planned and implemented what and who He wants us to submit to? This is the reversal of the Fall - willing submission/Faith.

The object of Faith is submitted to and when we understand how powerful Faith/Belief/Trust is, it's not difficult to see why it's what God wants. We believe things we base our entire function on and don't even think about them anymore. We are entirely submitted to these things mentally, spiritually. They can even be wrong, but we're submitted even deeply.

God has initiated everything, so foundationally we have done and can do nothing. Jesus commanded unbelievers to work for the food/information He gives after our Father sent Him to the earth to proclaim and save. Where is our merit? He says we don't have any in this and He owes us no wages for it, and we've simply done what is our duty to do. If we do the work He commands we have merit for our obedience? This is not Mosaic Law righteousness we're talking about. This is doing what's necessary to hear and learn His drawing/enabling/teaching and submit to Faith Righteousness as He commands.

If it concerns anyone that we submit to God by believing Him and trusting Him for what we cannot do for ourselves, I suggest they consider how they're swung the pendulum too far to protect against erroneous concepts of "works salvation".

It might be dumb to you in retrospect, but when you bragged on yourself at that time, I'm sure you didn't think it was so dumb! I'm just wondering how you didn't dislocate your shoulder from all your self-aggrandizing back-slapping!

OK, now let's focus this. Your question is posted at the top and my full response to you just under it. What's your issue and where am I patting myself on the back?

We all know by now that this will boil down to your erroneous view that men are corpses that need to be brought back to life before they can believe, correct? And thus, all the discussion in the Text about men like Paul working through the Scripture convincing unbelievers that Jesus is Messiah is basically throw-away instruction because corpses can't be convinced. And throw away the part of God putting usable knowledge of Himself into the minds and hearts of all men and holding them to account for not rejecting Him because this too cannot be understood or retained by corpses.

If this is all you've got, or if your version of T is a major part of your answer, then save your aged fingers, we have 12k+ pages of your tradition and we are in disagreement. And if you want to interpret the above as my patting myself on the back for accepting that God, the God who put knowledge of Himself in my mind and heart, and ultimately with His Word and His Spirit convinced me it was all true as He also did with His Grace provision of His Son for us, then please feel free. Your corpse stuff is nonsense.

 

[HeIsHere]

Even someone who is blind is helpless to change their condition. The same with the lame. They need a miraculous cure. They are unable, in and of themselves, to fix their condition. They need the help of God.
The spiritually dead individual is equally in need of a miraculous cure. But unlike the blind and lame, who are very much aware of their affliction, the spiritually blind do not know that they are. Read Revelation 3:17. They are going through life thinking all is well. Except their condition be made known to them and a cure brought to them, they will die in their sins, being ignorant of their estate.

The cure is available to all by exercising faith in the cure when presented.

"the spiritually blind do not know that they are."


Are you telling me people are unaware they are sinners? Perhaps a sociopath, psychopath and/or narcissist?

Rev. 3:17 is to people in the church, being lukewarm does not equal unsaved.

 

[Cameron143]

The cure is available to all by exercising faith in the cure when presented.

"the spiritually blind do not know that they are."


Are you telling me people are unaware they are sinners? Perhaps a sociopath, psychopath and/or narcissist?

Rev. 3:17 is to people in the church, being lukewarm does not equal unsaved.

We don't exercise faith until it is produced by the hearing, and that hearing by the word of God. The faith by which salvation comes is supernatural.

People can recognize their sinful estate before God. They have consciences, and know good from evil. They may even exhibit an earthly sorrow over offenses towards God and men alike. What they cannot do is believe from the heart. Until the heart of stone is replaced by a heart of flesh, man is left to his own devices. Being that he is unable to receive spiritual discernment and his mind is hostile towards God, he is helpless unless God is merciful.

You need not believe any of this to be saved. Many believe that they were saved after they believed. But God does all that He does to glorify Himself. You, or anyone else, contributing to their salvation by believing apart from the work of God, lessens the glory God receives.

 

[studier]

Given what I just posted in 12,758 methinks that the "thinking mind" in which Studier places great pride is going to have to rewrite 1Cor 1:26-31. Instead of God choosing the foolish things, the weak things, the lowly things, the despised things and things so that no one can boast before God, Studier is going to have to do a major rewrite of the chapter. He's going to have to say that God chose the thinking minds of this world who are still capable of being convinced. This way, our resident Wizard of Smarts will have something of which to boast.

Maybe our resident Wizard will become an editor of his own bible translation and call it The Thinking Person's Translation --- TPT for short.

Amazing all the bantering it takes to get one section of Scripture identified about the topic of the thread. Ready when you are, verse by verse. We'll keep it simple unless we need to dig in somewhere. I won't accept any less context, but I will accept more if you'd like:

NKJ 1 Cor1:17-2:5:
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

• Jesus Christ sent Paul to proclaim the Gospel - the Good News
• Paul was not sent to proclaim the Good News with "wisdom [of] word"
  • Paul elaborates a bit on this phrase in 1Cor2:1 & 1Cor2:4 included below - he did not come with "excellence of speech...or persuasive words of human wisdom" but with "demonstration of the Spirit and power.
    • So, Paul is not the focus. God's message of the cross of Christ proclaimed by Christ's messenger Paul together with God's backing Paul with demonstration/proof from His Spirit and power was the focus.
  • Paul explains the reason for this in 1Cor2:5 with another purpose clause: God provided proof from His Spirit and power for the message of the cross of Christ Paul was proclaiming, so the Faith of those who heard was in God's power and not in Paul's wisdom.
• When Paul says per the NKJ "lest the cross of Christ..." it's written as a purpose clause - Christ did not send Paul to proclaim the Good News with wisdom of word, for this reason, so [the message of] the cross of Christ would not be made empty/of no effect.
  • According to Paul here, Jesus Christ wanted His message of the cross to be the focus and God was providing proof and power to substantiate His message

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent1."
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD1."
2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Care to argue any of my basic observations?

Any observations so far that support your corpse view?

Want to take the next verse?

 

[GWH]

Sounds like a personal problem to me. I'm not the believer in your "omnilove" fantasy. If your stupid theory were true, God would have to treat all people identically, which he clearly does not!

So, you confess again the sin of impugning the righteous love of God for humanity, however accidentally (cf. Matt. 27:11).
In order to love people identically, He would have to treat them fairly, which He surely does,
although Scripture could explain that truth a little more clearly, so some dots need to be connected.

 

[Rufus]

OK, now let's focus this. Your question is posted at the top and my full response to you just under it. What's your issue and where am I patting myself on the back?

We all know by now that this will boil down to your erroneous view that men are corpses that need to be brought back to life before they can believe, correct? And thus, all the discussion in the Text about men like Paul working through the Scripture convincing unbelievers that Jesus is Messiah is basically throw-away instruction because corpses can't be convinced. And throw away the part of God putting usable knowledge of Himself into the minds and hearts of all men and holding them to account for not rejecting Him because this too cannot be understood or retained by corpses.

If this is all you've got, or if your version of T is a major part of your answer, then save your aged fingers, we have 12k+ pages of your tradition and we are in disagreement. And if you want to interpret the above as my patting myself on the back for accepting that God, the God who put knowledge of Himself in my mind and heart, and ultimately with His Word and His Spirit convinced me it was all true as He also did with His Grace provision of His Son for us, then please feel free. Your corpse stuff is nonsense.

Oh...so now God's Word AND the Holy Spirit effectually convinced you? Can you honestly (operative term!) agree with what Jesus told Peter after he confessed that Jesus is the Messiah? "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man but by my Father in heaven" (Mat 16:17). If you agree with Jesus' statement, then you were saved by God's effectual "convincing" (a/k/a grace!). So, is this what you're telling us now: That God effectually convinced to repent and believe the gospel? I know you like to use Paul as the template for his forceful, powerful, convincing gospel preaching -- but at the end of the day, the credit must go to the One who gives the increase. Unless one is born of the Spirit and the Word, he will never see God.

And, no... preaching and teaching the gospel is NOT "bascially throw-away instruction" because no preacher, teacher or evangelist knows who God's elect are. And everyone who subscribes to the Reformed view of soteriology is keenly aware of this but it doesn't stop us from preaching the gospel as though there is no tomorrow! Reformed folks are big on TODAY is the day of salvation, if you get my drift. For there might not be any tomorrow for some hearer or for the preacher or even for the world.

 

[Rufus]

So, you confess again the sin of impugning the righteous love of God for humanity, however accidentally (cf. Matt. 27:11).
In order to love people identically, He would have to treat them fairly, which He surely does,
although Scripture could explain that truth a little more clearly, so some dots need to be connected.

There is no text in scripture that specifically teaches that God loves each and every person in the world. Do you think on judgment day Jesus will tell those who he never intimately and personally knew that he loved them in the filial sense a whole bunch? How do you actually love someone, as family, you never knew?

In fact, if you believe that God loves all in the distributive sense, then you must also believe that his love is unconditional in nature -- that he loves all equally regardless how wicked, depraved and vile they are. But what did Jesus teach about the nature of divine love?

John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

And,

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
NIV

And,

John 15:10
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
NIV

And,

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

Jesus in the above passages qualifies (limits!) divine love by stipulating conditions under which a person will be loved by God. So, explain to us how God can love all men w/o exception regardless of their spiritual condition and at the same time not love all men
w/o exception since Jesus qualified (limited) divine love by stipulating conditions?

Have a nice evening....

 

[Rufus]

Amazing all the bantering it takes to get one section of Scripture identified about the topic of the thread. Ready when you are, verse by verse. We'll keep it simple unless we need to dig in somewhere. I won't accept any less context, but I will accept more if you'd like:

NKJ 1 Cor1:17-2:5:
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

• Jesus Christ sent Paul to proclaim the Gospel - the Good News
• Paul was not sent to proclaim the Good News with "wisdom [of] word"
  • Paul elaborates a bit on this phrase in 1Cor2:1 & 1Cor2:4 included below - he did not come with "excellence of speech...or persuasive words of human wisdom" but with "demonstration of the Spirit and power.
    • So, Paul is not the focus. God's message of the cross of Christ proclaimed by Christ's messenger Paul together with God's backing Paul with demonstration/proof from His Spirit and power was the focus.
  • Paul explains the reason for this in 1Cor2:5 with another purpose clause: God provided proof from His Spirit and power for the message of the cross of Christ Paul was proclaiming, so the Faith of those who heard was in God's power and not in Paul's wisdom.
• When Paul says per the NKJ "lest the cross of Christ..." it's written as a purpose clause - Christ did not send Paul to proclaim the Good News with wisdom of word, for this reason, so [the message of] the cross of Christ would not be made empty/of no effect.
  • According to Paul here, Jesus Christ wanted His message of the cross to be the focus and God was providing proof and power to substantiate His message

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent1."
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD1."
2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Care to argue any of my basic observations?

Any observations so far that support your corpse view?

Want to take the next verse?

So, you agree that God doesn't choose very many Einsteins in this world? So where does that leave all your capable thinking persons? And the above passage is a great proof text example for Isa 55:8-11. But is your faith in the power of God (2:5)? Or is your faith in your smarts which made you capable of believing the gospel?

 

[John146]

There is no text in scripture that specifically teaches that God loves each and every person in the world. Do you think on judgment day Jesus will tell those who he never intimately and personally knew that he loved them in the filial sense a whole bunch? How do you actually love someone, as family, you never knew?

In fact, if you believe that God loves all in the distributive sense, then you must also believe that his love is unconditional in nature -- that he loves all equally regardless how wicked, depraved and vile they are. But what did Jesus teach about the nature of divine love?

John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

And,

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
NIV

And,

John 15:10
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
NIV

And,

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

Jesus in the above passages qualifies (limits!) divine love by stipulating conditions under which a person will be loved by God. So, explain to us how God can love all men w/o exception regardless of their spiritual condition and at the same time not love all men
w/o exception since Jesus qualified (limited) divine love by stipulating conditions?

Have a nice evening....

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Fro God so loved the world…

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

Ok. So...what does it mean that a believer is no longer under the law?

I think those who insist God's law means nothing to Christians today are possibly not that well read, as pertains to the Bible.

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds.

 

[Cameron143]

I think those who insist God's law means nothing to Christians today are possibly not that well read, as pertains to the Bible.

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds.

Who insisted God's law means nothing?

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

Who insisted God's law means nothing?

Any and all who say the law of Moses ,God actually,is done away with.

Any and all who say God's law no longer applies to the Christian.

 

[Cameron143]

Any and all who say the law of Moses ,God actually,is done away with.

Any and all who say God's law no longer applies to the Christian.

The law was part of the old covenant. Jews who did not keep the law were subject to covenant sanctions. Those under the new covenant are not subject to covenantal sanctions. There are none. Christ has already fulfilled the covenant. In this regard, Christians are no longer under the law.

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

The law was part of the old covenant. Jews who did not keep the law were subject to covenant sanctions. Those under the new covenant are not subject to covenantal sanctions. There are none. Christ has already fulfilled the covenant. In this regard, Christians are no longer under the law.

Though as God tells us, his laws are now written in our hearts.