Understood.
Back at you.
No 11,127 of mine.
Understood.
You initiated. I responded.
Understood. Works well.
Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
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Understood.
Back at you.
No 11,127 of mine.
Understood.
You initiated. I responded.
Understood. Works well.
You describe GWH, who continually falsely accuses me with his wicked lying tongue, while saying I should be seeking peace with him.
But you console yourself with your deceptions. Typical. You see what you want to see. You are as much a hypocrite as he is.
Rest assured people see through your flimsy holier-than-thou attitude.
You are definitely a neophyte with your clinging to Eph 1.4. I have already written many article on Eph 1.4. You (plural) have been chosen IN HIM, not outside of him, where unbelievers are stationed. This is a common reference to Positional Truth. Christ is the Chosen One, those in Christ share Christ's Election, the point of Election here is SO THAT you will be holy and blameless...
I will humor you here. God chose us to salvation by means of the setting apart of the HS, and here is where. you should have noticed that God is not acting unilaterally, because it says "and belief in the Truth." Missing this is a colossal mistake.
They are fruit inspectors , ugh!!! for the most part.
Something about this "system" that affects them.
Yes, that is their god, so it does flow quite naturally it seems, now that you mention it.
This is why it's impossible to have a productive conversation or debate with you guys, you just make up and throw out stupid stuff like this and act as if, #1 I'm a Calvinite, which I'm not so the fact you keep saying this to me is as pointless and irrelivent as all get out, and #2 you act like this is an argument I've made, or would EVER make. I wouldn't. It's just more pointless bull from a person that loves to endlessly argue. This is the reason I don't normally reply to you and your crew, it's pointless because you live in LaLa land.
There are a few of you who just won't get it through your heads......Every single post of yours and your buddies AGREE with everything calvie. You like their posts. You agree with them. You fight with everyone who disagrees with calvie theology.
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and poops like a duck......It's a duck.
I get put in the Freegrace camp(and rightly so)........Based on all my posts!
You are a calvie in denial. Start PROVING me wrong. Because not one of your posts proves me wrong.
Kind of like how he started so-called discussing things with others by blatantly lying.
Kind of funny given he was claiming our beliefs are not misrepresented. That is exactly what he was doing!
And he carries on showing who he is by continuing to blatantly lie as above (in #11,267).
And then another liar gives them a gold ribbon. Birds of a feather...
What follows is a long post that winds up my main argument that I began in 10,910, then further supplemented in my 10,938 that deals with Federal Headship. In the former post, I hypothesized Adam's obedience to God's command and how God's love for Adam's progeny would have flowed through faithful Adam to all his descendants. I based my premise on the numerous qualified passages in scripture that explicitly teach what kind of people God loves in the filial sense. Then in the latter post, I showed how God manifested his mercy toward Israel through Moses (a type of Christ) who was willing to stand in the breach between disobedienct Israel and God. And in this final post on the subject the focus will be on the Federal Head of God's elect and how all things pertaining to salvation are bound up in God and his Christ.
To be continued...
To be continued...
You deny the very words of Jesus Christ. Again.
John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.
Continued from 11,269...
Isa 48:11
11 "For My own sake , for My own sake , I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.
NASB
And,
Ezek 36:22
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake , O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.
NIV
Under this New Covenant dispensation, however, notice the sharp contrast when it comes to the Father's beloved elect who are in Christ!
1 Peter 1:20
20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
NIV
Rom 8:28
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose
NIV
Matt 24:22
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
NIV
But even so, it it weren't for the elect's Federal Head there would be no elect -- indeed there could be no elect since God hates whatever is evil, including evil hearts or sinful natures that are in Adam!
Isa 49:5-6
5 And now the LORD says
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
and my God has been my strength
6 he says:"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
NIV
Isaiah 49 is a fascinating messianic chapter. But time and space will only permit a few highlights. First, we can rightly infer that the Father expanded his salvation to the Gentile nations all over the earth (i.e. the world of which Israel never considered itself to be a part) for the sake of his Faithful Servant who would become the Federal Head of his Father's people.
The second noteworthy observation is that God also promised restore his elect in Israel -- God's salvation of the Jewish remnant is limited to those the Father has kept for himself. Then we have these verses to consider:
Isa 49:7-9a
7 This is what the LORD says -
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel -
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
"Kings will see you and rise up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the LORD, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
8 This is what the LORD says:
"In the time of my favor I will answer you,
and in the day of salvation I will help you;
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people,
to restore the land
and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
9 to say to the captives, 'Come out,'
and to those in darkness, 'Be free!
NIV
God promised his Holy Servant that he would make him to be a covenant "for the people". Notice it does not say, "for the peoples" as in all the Gentile nations in the world. The Messiah would become the embodiment of the New Covenant to the same "people" to whom the New Covenant would be made, i.e. Israel or even more theologically accurate to Abraham's spiritual descendants. This passage strongly reinforces my often stated premise that God never entered into a redemptive covenant (or into a covenant of love) with all mankind w/o exception, whereas he did enter into covenant of love with all men w/o distincition.
Secondly, look at v. 7 very carefully."Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down -- not because of their "freewill" choices but rather because of the Lord is who would be faithul to his Servant! Irresistible Grace!
Thirdly, notice that the Lord issued commands, expressive of his Decretive Will, to his Servant which he in turn would issue toward the Father's elect: "COME OUT" and "BE FREE". These are imperatives, which means these commands are also efficacious in nature. These are the commands his Faithful Servant would issue to all the Father's elect. None of God's commands that express his Decreitve Will have ever failed!
Then we have this:
Heb 2:13
13"I will put my trust in him."
And again he says,
"Here am I, and the children God has given me."
NIV
These are the same children the Father gave to Jesus John 6. About these elect children scripture teaches that through Christ the elect believe (1Pet 1:21; Act 3:16); through Christ the elect have access to the Father by one Spirit (Eph 2:18); through Christ comes reconciliation of all things (2Cor 5:18; Col 1:20); through Christ thanksgiving is given to the Father (Col 3:17); Christ is able to save completely those who come to the Father through Him (Heb 7:25); through Christ the elect have eternal life (1Jn 4:9); through Christ the elect are justified (Act 13:39); through Christ elect Gentiles receive the blessing promised to Abraham (Gal 3:14); through Christ the law of the Spirit of life sets the elect free (Rom 8:2); saints rejoice in God through Christ Jesus (Rom 5:11).
Additionally, God's children are light in the Lord (Eph 5:8); the gift of eternal life is in the Lord (Rom 6:23); the saints' sanctification is in the Lord (1Cor 1:2); saints receive grace in the Lord (1Cor 1:4); the veil is removed from sinners' eyes only in the Lord (2Cor 3:14); freedom is in Christ Jesus (Gal 2:4); God accomplished his purpose in Christ Jesus (Eph 3:11); the peace of God guards the saints' hearts and minds in Christ (Php 4:7); grace, faith and love are found abundantly in Christ (1Tim 1:14); the promise of life is in Christ Jesus (2Tim 1:1); grace was given to the saints in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2Tim 1:9); the God of all grace called saints to his glory in Christ (1Pet 5:10), God's love for his chosen people comes through and in Christ (Rom 8:39); God's love for his elect is the same love God has for his Chosen One (Jn 17:26); and the saints love God because He first loved us (1Jn 4:19).
All of salvation, therefore, is entirely of God who purposed it, the Son who accomplished it and the Holy Spirit who effectually applies it. I don't believe there is better passage in scripture that succinctly reveals this great truth. And it comes in this doxology at the end of Rom 11 that winds up Paul's teaching on election that began in chapter 9:
Rom 11:33-36
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
NIV
According to FWT, God's "counselor" is his cosmic crystal ball wherein this omniscient God learns things about the sons of men, as he peers into time. In this heretical view, the all-knowing God actually has to learn things from his finite, fallible free moral agents.
And who has known the mind of the Lord? According to Paul, it certainly isn't the Natural Man who doesn't have the Spirit of the Lord, since he cannot understand the things of God (1Cor 2:14).
And Paul's next question is a grand slam that he hit out of the ballpark! "Who has ever given to God that God should repay him?" But in FWT, this is precisely what FWs believe since salvation is merely a business type arrangement -- a business contract, as it were, that God enters into with man. FWs believe God merely provides opportunities for men to be saved; all men have to do is react positively to the call of the Gospel and THEN God will "repay him" for upholding his end of this quid pro quo deal by giving them the gifts of grace, faith, repentance, eternal life, new heart, circumcised heart, the Holy Spirit, etc.
And then Paul finally drives the last nail into the coffin of FWT with v. 36. God's great salvation is all about God; for he certinly did not have to save any human being -- any more than he has to save the fallen angels. God does all for his own praise, glory and honor. All salvation is God-centered; its locus being in God's appointed Federal Head through whom and in whom and to whom all things come. But if I know FWs, they will twist this passage, especially the last phrase "are all things" to mean something less than all. They will not want to see "all things" as including man's ways (eg. his most high, sacred and sacrosanct will), even though scripture teaches man's ways are indeed in God's hands (Jer 10:23; Prov 20:24; Dan 5:23),and that God works out all things according to the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11, cf. Jn 5:21; Rom 9:14-18).
Furthermore, since from God and through Him and to Him are all things this necessaririly includes his filial love for his elect. His unwavering, enduring and eternal love for his people flows from God through his Federal Head the Last Adam. God loves his saints because He sees his appointed Representative in every single saint (Jn 17:26). He sees his elect as being as true and faithful as his Holy Servant was. God's love for his saints is inextricably bound up in his Beloved (Rom 8:39) -- flowing through the Man who learned obedience, even obedience unto death (Heb 5:8; Jn 10:17). God loves no one in the filial sense who is outside of Christ.
Isa 48:11
11 "For My own sake , for My own sake , I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.
NASB
And,
Ezek 36:22
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake , O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.
NIV
Under this New Covenant dispensation, however, notice the sharp contrast when it comes to the Father's beloved elect who are in Christ!
1 Peter 1:20
20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
NIV
Rom 8:28
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose
NIV
Matt 24:22
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
NIV
But even so, it it weren't for the elect's Federal Head there would be no elect -- indeed there could be no elect since God hates whatever is evil, including evil hearts or sinful natures that are in Adam!
Isa 49:5-6
5 And now the LORD says
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
and my God has been my strength
6 he says:"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
NIV
Isaiah 49 is a fascinating messianic chapter. But time and space will only permit a few highlights. First, we can rightly infer that the Father expanded his salvation to the Gentile nations all over the earth (i.e. the world of which Israel never considered itself to be a part) for the sake of his Faithful Servant who would become the Federal Head of his Father's people.
The second noteworthy observation is that God also promised restore his elect in Israel -- God's salvation of the Jewish remnant is limited to those the Father has kept for himself. Then we have these verses to consider:
Isa 49:7-9a
7 This is what the LORD says -
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel -
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
"Kings will see you and rise up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the LORD, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
8 This is what the LORD says:
"In the time of my favor I will answer you,
and in the day of salvation I will help you;
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people,
to restore the land
and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
9 to say to the captives, 'Come out,'
and to those in darkness, 'Be free!
NIV
God promised his Holy Servant that he would make him to be a covenant "for the people". Notice it does not say, "for the peoples" as in all the Gentile nations in the world. The Messiah would become the embodiment of the New Covenant to the same "people" to whom the New Covenant would be made, i.e. Israel or even more theologically accurate to Abraham's spiritual descendants. This passage strongly reinforces my often stated premise that God never entered into a redemptive covenant (or into a covenant of love) with all mankind w/o exception, whereas he did enter into covenant of love with all men w/o distincition.
Secondly, look at v. 7 very carefully."Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down -- not because of their "freewill" choices but rather because of the Lord is who would be faithul to his Servant! Irresistible Grace!
Thirdly, notice that the Lord issued commands, expressive of his Decretive Will, to his Servant which he in turn would issue toward the Father's elect: "COME OUT" and "BE FREE". These are imperatives, which means these commands are also efficacious in nature. These are the commands his Faithful Servant would issue to all the Father's elect. None of God's commands that express his Decreitve Will have ever failed!
Then we have this:
Heb 2:13
13"I will put my trust in him."
And again he says,
"Here am I, and the children God has given me."
NIV
These are the same children the Father gave to Jesus John 6. About these elect children scripture teaches that through Christ the elect believe (1Pet 1:21; Act 3:16); through Christ the elect have access to the Father by one Spirit (Eph 2:18); through Christ comes reconciliation of all things (2Cor 5:18; Col 1:20); through Christ thanksgiving is given to the Father (Col 3:17); Christ is able to save completely those who come to the Father through Him (Heb 7:25); through Christ the elect have eternal life (1Jn 4:9); through Christ the elect are justified (Act 13:39); through Christ elect Gentiles receive the blessing promised to Abraham (Gal 3:14); through Christ the law of the Spirit of life sets the elect free (Rom 8:2); saints rejoice in God through Christ Jesus (Rom 5:11).
Additionally, God's children are light in the Lord (Eph 5:8); the gift of eternal life is in the Lord (Rom 6:23); the saints' sanctification is in the Lord (1Cor 1:2); saints receive grace in the Lord (1Cor 1:4); the veil is removed from sinners' eyes only in the Lord (2Cor 3:14); freedom is in Christ Jesus (Gal 2:4); God accomplished his purpose in Christ Jesus (Eph 3:11); the peace of God guards the saints' hearts and minds in Christ (Php 4:7); grace, faith and love are found abundantly in Christ (1Tim 1:14); the promise of life is in Christ Jesus (2Tim 1:1); grace was given to the saints in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2Tim 1:9); the God of all grace called saints to his glory in Christ (1Pet 5:10), God's love for his chosen people comes through and in Christ (Rom 8:39); God's love for his elect is the same love God has for his Chosen One (Jn 17:26); and the saints love God because He first loved us (1Jn 4:19).
All of salvation, therefore, is entirely of God who purposed it, the Son who accomplished it and the Holy Spirit who effectually applies it. I don't believe there is better passage in scripture that succinctly reveals this great truth. And it comes in this doxology at the end of Rom 11 that winds up Paul's teaching on election that began in chapter 9:
Rom 11:33-36
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
NIV
According to FWT, God's "counselor" is his cosmic crystal ball wherein this omniscient God learns things about the sons of men, as he peers into time. In this heretical view, the all-knowing God actually has to learn things from his finite, fallible free moral agents.
And who has known the mind of the Lord? According to Paul, it certainly isn't the Natural Man who doesn't have the Spirit of the Lord, since he cannot understand the things of God (1Cor 2:14).
And Paul's next question is a grand slam that he hit out of the ballpark! "Who has ever given to God that God should repay him?" But in FWT, this is precisely what FWs believe since salvation is merely a business type arrangement -- a business contract, as it were, that God enters into with man. FWs believe God merely provides opportunities for men to be saved; all men have to do is react positively to the call of the Gospel and THEN God will "repay him" for upholding his end of this quid pro quo deal by giving them the gifts of grace, faith, repentance, eternal life, new heart, circumcised heart, the Holy Spirit, etc.
And then Paul finally drives the last nail into the coffin of FWT with v. 36. God's great salvation is all about God; for he certinly did not have to save any human being -- any more than he has to save the fallen angels. God does all for his own praise, glory and honor. All salvation is God-centered; its locus being in God's appointed Federal Head through whom and in whom and to whom all things come. But if I know FWs, they will twist this passage, especially the last phrase "are all things" to mean something less than all. They will not want to see "all things" as including man's ways (eg. his most high, sacred and sacrosanct will), even though scripture teaches man's ways are indeed in God's hands (Jer 10:23; Prov 20:24; Dan 5:23),and that God works out all things according to the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11, cf. Jn 5:21; Rom 9:14-18).
Furthermore, since from God and through Him and to Him are all things this necessaririly includes his filial love for his elect. His unwavering, enduring and eternal love for his people flows from God through his Federal Head the Last Adam. God loves his saints because He sees his appointed Representative in every single saint (Jn 17:26). He sees his elect as being as true and faithful as his Holy Servant was. God's love for his saints is inextricably bound up in his Beloved (Rom 8:39) -- flowing through the Man who learned obedience, even obedience unto death (Heb 5:8; Jn 10:17). God loves no one in the filial sense who is outside of Christ.
When you say, "many article", did your readers actually have to pay for them? If so, you should refund them.
(Okay, and with this reply to you, I'm done).
Christ is the Chosen One, but He was the first of many brethren.
Unless elected, everyone is, and will remain, outside of Him.
God makes His elect, holy and blameless through Christ, given by God only as a free gift (that no one deserves, nor can they give it to themselves). God chose/elected only certain, specific, individuals for salvation, not everyone.
It doesn't get clearer that these verses (there are more, but these should suffice). Read them and think about what they're saying.
[Rom 8:29-31 KJV]
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[Mar 13:22 KJV] 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
[Mar 13:20 KJV]
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
[2Th 2:13-14 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[Col 3:11-12 KJV]
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[Tit 1:1 KJV]
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Not missed and not a mistake - God is acting unilaterally. To believe in the truth is also a free gift from God to His elect.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
It's amazing, Magenta, how certain people simply cannot accept this - I guess it goes back to that natural man problem.
It becomes, after a while, quite mind blowing how much Scripture is denied.
Then one of the main proponents of free will proclaims that whole part of the
discussion was a distraction while she re-introduces another heresy to screech about.
Of course it is not right to the many who deny, ignore, and contradict much in Scripture.
They don't like it so they have to make something else up instead.
No price should ever be associated with the teaching of Scripture outside the local church; that way grace will honor it.
Yes, let us pray God's loving HS will free them from the divisive spirit
as Paul prayed for the Ephesians (in EPH 3:14-19)
and as Jesus prayed for the disciples in (JN 17:20-26).
Of course it can. FWs believe that with all their hearts. God dropped his crystal ball into space and time and spied out who all would come to know him first and choose their own eternal destiny, and then God simply rubber-stamped their good choices by predestining what sinners had already chosen for themselves. Easy peasy for them.