Understanding God’s election
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When Christ was numbered with the transgressors (see below verses), those He represented could no longer be numbered as transgressors since He took their place - the concept of double jeopardy would not permit Christ and those for whom He stood in, to both be so numbered - given that Christ became numbered. If Christ's sacrifice truly applied to everyone as you say, then He alone would have been numbered as the only transgressor (yet He wasn’t), with no other transgressors remaining. However, as the verses below clearly indicate, Christ was numbered with transgressors, but not that the transgressors were numbered with Christ - meaning those He was numbered with still remained transgressors, they, apart from Christ. Therefore, given as they remained transgressors even when Christ was a transgressor, means that it is not possible for those transgressors to ever be covered by His sacrifice.
[Isa 53:11-12 KJV]
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
[Mar 15:28 KJV] 28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
[Isa 53:11-12 KJV]
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
[Mar 15:28 KJV] 28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
I guess Adam either had free will or he wasn't one of God's elect.
He may have had both or neither. Just remember election has nothing to do with salvation. There is not one instance where election refers to eternal salvation and there are several uses in which election is used for unbelievers.
He may have had both or neither. Just remember election has nothing to do with salvation. There is not one instance where election refers to eternal salvation and there are several uses in which election is used for unbelievers.
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Not one? Really? Just a few quickies:
[Eph 1:4-7 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[1Pe 1:2-5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[Eph 1:4-7 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[1Pe 1:2-5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Would it make you question whether the election spoken of here was according to the word order of the language, speaking of their being, "elect/chosen sojourners/strangers/temporary residents of/for dispersion...as the ESV is picking up? IOW Jewish Christians chosen to live as strangers in the diaspora?
ESV 1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
ESV 1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
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I assume this doesn't sound to you like God's Salvation Plan for those who would believe Jesus is YHWH's Christ. IOW, it does not say God chose us TO BE in Him (Christ) but God chose us in Christ TO BE... There is a difference. It's really saying God chose Christians to be... and it's explaining how part of God's Plan works.
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I'm not sure how deeply you are comfortable with going into the subject given your original post, but I do enjoy trying to understand why people hold the positions they do. So if you don't want to share I'll understand. But if you are amenable, what is it you object to in God choosing? Is there something in the character or ways of God that leads you to believe Him choosing would violate?
And this can be interpreted in a few ways as has been discussed for quite a long time by quite a few Christians. IN CHRIST is a repeated phrase in the main clause and in the comparative clause. It's important to the interpretation. IN CHRIST God blessed Christians compares to IN CHRIST God chose Christians to be... Neither of these clauses says God chose men to be Christians.
In Eph1 Paul is speaking of many aspects of God's Salvation Plan. In Eph1:11 Paul uses the word, prothesis. It means that which is planned in advance (BDAG). He uses it again in Eph3:11. He also speaks of it in 2Tim1:9. Also in Rom8:28 and in Rom8:29-20 he again speaks of some of the aspects of God's Plan. Also, in Rom9:11 where he calls it God's according to election Plan.
Rom9:11 of course is one of the places much of the election according to TULIP kicks off.
FWIW, I've never said this is an easy topic. There are reasons it's been debated for ages. At least those written exegetical studies are mostly respectful.
In Eph1 Paul is speaking of many aspects of God's Salvation Plan. In Eph1:11 Paul uses the word, prothesis. It means that which is planned in advance (BDAG). He uses it again in Eph3:11. He also speaks of it in 2Tim1:9. Also in Rom8:28 and in Rom8:29-20 he again speaks of some of the aspects of God's Plan. Also, in Rom9:11 where he calls it God's according to election Plan.
Rom9:11 of course is one of the places much of the election according to TULIP kicks off.
FWIW, I've never said this is an easy topic. There are reasons it's been debated for ages. At least those written exegetical studies are mostly respectful.
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