Understanding God’s election

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Jul 3, 2015
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Not to be argumentative here but this is not what you have quoted as good proof text,
'afterall, trying' is not ' believing'. Big difference, unless you redefine faith as work. ;)
Trying is desiring to do something the text specifically says they cannot.
They even believed they believed. Obviously something was missing.
They could not just decide to do something without God doing His part first.
Their so-called "free will" was useless to them. Well, in fact it does not exist.
The natural man is captive to the will of the devil.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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We put on the righteousness of Christ. “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” You were dead in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. The Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it. If Christ is in you, your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
 
Nov 17, 2015
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You took that verse out of context. The whole chapter is addressed to believers.

You have the Holy Spirit comforting unbelievers? Unbelievers testifying?

That's messed up, yo.
Umm, you might try to re read the context. The given text is not what being said of what you are to convey. While it is true he is said to be a comforter, he is also the Spirit of truth, bearing witness as the disciples have to bear witness of what Christ did. To whom the disciples and the Spirit of truth testify? Well, it could not be the disciples but in reference to the unbelievers
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Umm, you might try to re read the context. The given text is not what being said of what you are to convey. While it is true he is said to be a comforter, he is also the Spirit of truth, bearing witness as the disciples have to bear witness of what Christ did. To whom the disciples and the Spirit of truth testify? Well, it could not be the disciples but in reference to the unbelievers
The Holy Spirit of God testifies to believers and CONVICTS unbelievers because they do not believe.

It is you who have taken verses out of context. And you are twisting the meaning.

Unbelievers are described as DARKNESS. The darkness does not comprehend the Light.

Something has to change first and it is GOD Who enacts the change.
 
Nov 17, 2015
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Trying is desiring to do something the text specifically says they cannot.
They even believed they believed. Obviously something was missing.
They could not just decide to do something without God doing His part first.
Their so-called "free will" was useless to them. Well, in fact it does not exist.
The natural man is captive to the will of the devil.
And yet it is the will of the Father to believe. Well, those who want to enter with their own efforts or their own ways or works cannot do so. The context saying of mere professions as many claim , hence qualified by Christ as workers of iniquity. What lesson being learned is that they have rejected the work of Christ and established their own. Should they trusted God they would have but that is not case of the narrative. In short, they willed their own.
Well, this is not good stuff to de value FW. Thanks
 
Jul 3, 2015
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And yet it is the will of the Father to believe. Well, those who want to enter with their own efforts or their own ways or works cannot do so. The context saying of mere professions as many claim , hence qualified by Christ as workers of iniquity. What lesson being learned is that they have rejected the work of Christ and established their own. Should they trusted God they would have but that is not case of the narrative. In short, they willed their own.
Well, this is not good stuff to de value FW. Thanks
The problem is they do not believe in their stony heart which needs to be changed, for it is with the heart
that one believes. They cannot just decide to believe, yes God desires all to come to the knowledge of the
truth. The truth of those people is they are deceived like the rest of the world under the influence of the devil.
 
Nov 17, 2015
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The Holy Spirit of God testifies to believers and CONVICTS unbelievers because they do not believe.

It is you who have taken verses out of context. And you are twisting the meaning.

Unbelievers are described as DARKNESS. The darkness does not comprehend the Light.

Something has to change first and it is GOD Who enacts the change.
John 15:26 KJV — But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 15:27 KJV — And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Who shal testify or bear witness?
Per Scripture, the Spirit of truth as well as the disciples. No problem with the unbelievers as they are in darkness so that it is the task of the disiples to Christ , bear witness, testify that Christ is the Light.
What you are trying to insert is John 14, but thats another story
 
Jul 3, 2015
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John 15:26 KJV — But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 15:27 KJV — And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Who shal testify or bear witness?
Per Scripture, the Spirit of truth as well as the disciples. No problem with the unbelievers as they are in darkness so that it is the task of the disiples to Christ , bear witness, testify that Christ is the Light.
What you are trying to insert is John 14, but thats another story
The Holy Spirit is testifying to believers, and believers testify also. Chapter 17 is written to believers. Jesus
does not even pray for others in that chapter. He specifically says so. You better go back and read it again.
Here is a little reminder, Also,
I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those You have given Me.


John 17 paraphrase
:)
 
Nov 21, 2020
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He is Here's comment "All men are all born with the ability to believe in / trust in the Good News."

God tells us to repent and believe. If people are unable to believe, why does God tell to believe?
He only commands and causes His elect to believe, the non elect He confirms and hardens in unbelief so to be damned 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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No problem, Rufus, I very much respect your point of view very much, so I definitely accept that you could be correct. Given as I tend to be a lazy cuss and generally a simple minded who doesn't like to think much, I'll try to provide a quick answer right now, and if you don't feel that sufficient, I'll try to address your post tomorrow (or so), in greater detail regarding the points you raise above.

First and foremost is your point of "children of promise" "according to election". If I've understood you correctly, it seems to me that both parts cannot equally be true at the same time, that is, logically, one must take full precedence and eliminate the possibility of the other: either someone is chosen solely and exclusively because they had been elected (in which case, being a Jew is irrelevant), or they had been elected because they're Jews (in which case being elect is irrelevant) - at least according to my understanding of election. However, if you're making the case that both can be true, then that would imply that God must have TWO salvation plans, not one: one with Christ solely as the Savior, having exclusively chosen who would become saved through His prerogative, with no other factors permitted; the other, that human linage has played a part in it, which in itself, would override the Christ's choice. I guess you might say that Christ's choice factored into it that they would become Jews and chose them on that basis, (but in that case, wouldn't it eliminate non-Jews?). However, for that option to be logically consistent, it would seem to have to hold true across all Jews not just some - that all must become saved, if its basis were they are Jews.
The second reason is the following verses, which, I believe, reveals to us who the "His people" now are: the true spiritual Israel and true spiritual Jews. It seems to me that by the verses, that God has pretty much wiped the slate clean regarding His relationship to the earthly nation of Israel and to its Jews, which He warned that He would do should they violate the stipulations of His covenant with them, which they nevertheless did repeatedly.
Hope this makes sense; writing isn't my strong suit.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

To set the stage, God told us this:

[Hos 1:9-11 KJV]
9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great [shall be] the day of Jezreel.

[Rom 9:30-33 KJV]
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
The "children of promise" and "according to election" are not mutually exclusive ideas. Whether we're speaking of Jewish or Gentile believers (both of whom are spiritual children of Abraham, as I have conceded in my prior post) have been elected by God unto salvation. They both are "children of promise" precisely because the have been predestined in eternity to be such. (And this fact is what makes Rom 9-11 extremely relevant to Gentile believers!) And because both groups are "children of promise" and are incorporated into the Body of Christ, it can be said that the entire nation "will be saved", keeping in mind that Christ's Church is the [spiritual] "nation" to whom the kingdom was given, while being taken away from unbelieving ethnic Jews according to mere lineage (Mat 21:43). So, I think we're both in agreement on this point. However, in Rom 9 - 11, the primary focus is not on Christ's church per se but on ethnic/biological Jews whom God previously brought into a covenant relationship with himself through the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants, with this latter covenant being the basis for nationhood. Paul is explaining to his original audience of Gentile believers that even though the vast majority of Jews within national Israel reject their Messiah, God's Word has not failed. Nor have his promises failed with respect to national Israel. This is so because ALL "children of promise" either within the nation of Israel or those ethnic Jews scattered abroad will be saved, just as all the Gentiles will be who are also "children of promise" -- whose spiritual father is Abraham. All those whom God foreknew in eternity will be saved! And this is how all spiritually alive ethnic Jews will be saved who are also "children of promise".

In other words, the bottom line to Paul's argument in these three chapters was that God's Word did not fail because it was never God's intention to save each and every Israelite! Therefore, like you, and unlike dispensationalists, we don't interpret "all Israel" as national Israel.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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He is Here's comment "All men are all born with the ability to believe in / trust in the Good News."

God tells us to repent and believe. If people are unable to believe, why does God tell to believe?
For the same reason God gave the Israelites his Law which no one can obey perfectly. Break the law at one point, and one is guilty of breaking all the law!
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Revelation 3:8; Luke 1:24 ~ Behold, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.
I wonder what part of "won't be able" FWs can't understand. It seems every image-bearer of God should be able to freely will himself in through the door, right?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Not to be argumentative here but this is not what you have quoted as good proof text, 'afterall, trying' is not ' believing'. Big difference, unless you redefine faith as work. ;)
Oh but it is! Read Heb 3 some day! The Israelites were not able to enter into God's rest or the Promised Land, for that matter precisely because they lacked faith!
 
Jul 3, 2015
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I wonder what part of "won't be able" FWs can't understand. It seems every image-
bearer of God should be able to freely will himself in through the door, right?
I know! And it's not like it's something that cannot be done. However, clearly something is lacking
and that something can only be provided by God as many other texts stipulate and articulate.
The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.



Romans 8:6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.