Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I wholly agree. The promise of grace and faith of Jesus Christ, is the gift of God.
Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
It is the good news of the gospel promised to all that repent of deeds against Him. Those who do not repent, do not recieve His grace and faith to do His righteousness.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
The unrepentant by definition do no want any help from God or man, not do their own sinful pleasures.
Thaty pretty much applies to all separatist groups within Christianity. The only thing they have to talk about with 'outsiders' is their special little rule of doctrine that separates them from the common faith and body of Christ.
The Bible record of such divisional sects began with circumcisionists, and continues with created christ believers, water baptism saviors, sabbath commanders, predeterminists, pentecostal holiness ordinances, etc... And they all have whole volumes of scholarship to prove themselves, because Scripture does not say it plainly, and in some cases plainly speaks against them.
You ignore it. Like literally, YOU ignore it... and/or claim it doesn't mean what it plainly says.The question becomes what does one do with something that contradicts what they have been taught?
1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
I have to admit that I just failed to see your counterpoint. Obviously, vv 1-4 presents the unregenerate state of man or describes the past manner of life of the Ephesian believers being dead on trespassses and sins vv1, 4 and were before the children of disobedience or wrath.vv 2-3 Yet, despite that, God' mercy and his great love flow down amidist the condition of man. Now v5 stated that " Even when we dead in sins, hath quickened ( made alive)" which you concluded it as regeneration before faith. The fact is you exclude what Paul is saying on the same verse 5 clarifying the matter that it is by grace they are saved which connects the dots in v8 particularly. Your argument that vv1-5 places before v8 makes no sense as he is addressing how one gets saved from sin, to which i have countered that with Ephesians 1:13 which places before Ephesians 2:1-5 using your argument. Again, you have merely understood this Ephesians. 1:13 as merely sealing and not indwelling of the Spìrit by which you ignored the first part, speaking of salvation which connects Ephesians 2:5. While you may be good doing word gymnasts, you are unaware the first thing Ephesians 1: 12 is all about. Similarly, Paul wrote to his son in the faith Timothy that in 1:16, indeed, destroys your regeneration before faith view. Simply, the verse is saying that belief is demanded before life everlasting.
Without agreeing with the inherited sin part, it is true corrupt hearts of lust, cannot have the faith of our Lord toward God, that is necessary to do His righteousness. We must first repent of our deeds, so that He removes the lust and gives us His grace and faith in a pure heart.
Lusting sinners cannot believe their way to God by their own will alone. Nor choose to be His servant of righteousness.
God calls all sinners to repent of sinful deeds, and He only chooses them who do so for His sake.
It's possible for God to save all men from our sins, because His Son is the propititation for all sins of the world, and so calls on all men to repent, but not all men do repent of sinning to be saved by Him.
Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
His call to repent is unconditional. The promise of eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, is to them that unconditionally surrender to Him, and unconditionally obey Him in all things, even as He does the Father.
Psa 110:1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Ephesians 1:13 isn't about salvation. It is a sealing of the Spirit. Seals go on the outside; not the inside. But they do authenticate what is on the inside.
Seals also go inside circuses, but if you ain't sealed on the inside, you ain't saved but are outside the body!
Well.....grace definitely is the MEANS ("by grace")
But it seems to me that it is salvation that is the GIFT being pointed to here in these passages.
The thing is, somebody needs to verify whether any rigorous Greek grammatical rules are being broken when doing so.
But the other thing is.....Paul was sloppy with his Greek, and bent the rules quite often.
Paul so clearly states the gospel (1 Corinthians 15) below.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
By which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
How is it possible for anyone to misunderstand the simple gospel.
Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses,
resulting in salvation.
I have found a number of people on forums that will not accept the gospel above.
That have an inflated version of the gospel.
They do not understand what Paul is saying.
Again you ignored what Paul is saying about the gospel of salvation in the first part. Then again your wrong about sealing that goes outside.Pauls says it goes inside the heart.
2 Corinthians 1:22 KJV — Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Believing in Jesus is God's will and that is not determinism.
The creation was designed with the ability to believe.
Scientists believe that measuring, observing, experimenting, allows them to understand the universe.
Politicians believe that their political system is worth protecting.
Theologians believe they can understand God's interaction with man.
There are probably billions of people that believe in a God.
There are a lot less than billions that believe in Jesus.
Anyone can believe in Jesus and many are raised in Christian families and believe from a very young age.
Believing is not self determinism or a work.
Believing many things is a daily event for everyone and it's how we are designed.
The earnest of the Spirit isn't the sealing. It is a confirmation of what has been done inwardly. The earnest is the indwelling Spirit that bears witness with our Spirit that we are indeed the child of God.
When John the Baptist said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit, what was he referring to?
The fulfillment of the water baptism was with the baptism of the Holy Sprit.
Mark 1:7-8
And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit
to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. I baptized you with water; but He will baptize
you with the Holy Spirit.”
The Elect of God Defined.
The elect of God are those who God foreknown would, as believers without willful unbelief, ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
The elect of God
The elect of God are those who God foreknown would, as believers without willful unbelief, ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
The elect of God
God foreknown
Ephesians 1:4
Believers without willful unbelief
Ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace
Within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ
Promptings of the Holy Spirit.
What does this 'plainly' say?
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood,
you have no life in you. " John 6:53
Plainly... your argument needs work.