Understanding God’s election

[brightfame52]

@rogerg

BTW, it is saying exactly that regeneration comes first in the below in Col 2:13. They had to have their sins forgiven FIRST in order to be made alive. Observe in Col 2:13 the "having forgiven you all trespasses"; that is, they were made alive by their trespasses being forgiven.


[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Amen that's correct, when sins have been forgiven, death has been legally abolished, and life is given, hence being given spiritual life from being dead in sin, is evidence that your sins have been forgiven

 

[Rufus]

That scripture reference in Joshua isnt about salvation, it was a statement made to them who were already Gods chosen covenant people, its about serving Him out of gratitude, and in fact Joshua told them they cannot serve the Lord Josh 24:14-19

14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods;

17 For the Lord our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

18 And the Lord drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the Lord; for he is our God.

19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Good post! So...the OC people of God were commanded to obey his Law and to Serve Him; yet, they did neither as a nation! And they were told that they wouldn't be able to either! Freewillers (hereafter FWs) insist, however, that when God gives commands he fully expects compliance by the nation, otherwise God is jerking us around, tricking us, deceiving us, etc. Yet, in spite of passages such as the one you quoted, FWs have no explanation for the rationale behind commands that cannot be kept.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Im for real, if you hate tulip you hate the Gospel of God, but you dont realize it, you have been deceived

The sad thing is that you have missed the point of the Gospel entirely. I hope you don't talk to the lost, you're doing more damage than good. Pity.

 

[Cranberry]

Exactly. All their "harmonizing" of scripture changes scripture.

They have men beaten BEFORE they do anything worthy of a beating.

Luke 12:48
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

There is also another truth presented in this passage........The calvies KNOW. They have been given much truth on this thread alone.

Yes,Paul must have been a Calvanist.

1 Corinthians 2

 

[Rufus]

Exactly. All their "harmonizing" of scripture changes scripture.

They have men beaten BEFORE they do anything worthy of a beating.

Luke 12:48
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

There is also another truth presented in this passage........The calvies KNOW. They have been given much truth on this thread alone.

No thanks to FWs!

 

[Inquisitor]

Regarding the New Covenant (and as I believe I pointed out to you and others previously from scripture), choice was not included in it as an option for its recipient to make.

Your life is riddled with choices everyday.

How can you say that you don't choose everyday to serve Jesus?

As a Christian your constantly in a state of spiritual warfare within.

Choices everyday of the week.

Yet you say; no one can choose the Lord or choose to serve the Lord, except the elect.

 

[Inquisitor]

Good post! So...the OC people of God were commanded to obey his Law and to Serve Him; yet, they did neither as a nation! And they were told that they wouldn't be able to either! Freewillers (hereafter FWs) insist, however, that when God gives commands he fully expects compliance by the nation, otherwise God is jerking us around, tricking us, deceiving us, etc. Yet, in spite of passages such as the one you quoted, FWs have no explanation for the rationale behind commands that cannot be kept.

Everyone failed to obey the law and that included the elect.

King David was one such fellow.

That is why salvation is by grace above all.

 

[Rufus]

Yesterday, I sent up two posts to counter Bain's contention that the phrase "whole world" in Jn 2:2 can or should only be understood in the distributive sense, i.e. each and every person in the world. Interestingly, the apostle uses this phrase "whole world" in his various writings more than any other NT writer. This phrase appears 14 times in the NT and John used it 8 of those times -- most of the time in a restrictive sense. In fact, he used it again in the 5th chapter of his first epistle, which is the topic of this post. We should look briefly at this second use, lest any of us think that John's restrictive use of the term in the second chapter was a fluke or anomaly. The passage reads:

1 John 5:4-5, 18-19
4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God....18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
NIV

If "whole world" is in fact being used in the universal or distributive sense in this passage, this would pose some very significant theological problems, the chief of which is that John, writing by the Holy Spirit, would have been contradicting himself per vv. 4 and 18. This should be very obvious to all straight thinking people. For if the "whole world" is used in the distributive sense, then the Church that is in the world but not of it would also be "under control of the evil one" and, therefore, not overcoming the evil one's world. And what would that say about the One who keeps his people safe by prohibiting Satan from irrevocably harming anyone spiritually who is truly "born of God"?

Context once again is king! And despite what some FWer wrote recently, context determines how words or phrases are used.

 

[Rufus]

Everyone failed to obey the law and that included the elect.

King David was one such fellow.

That is why salvation is by grace above all.

Yes, everyone failed! So why did God give commands that He knew no one would be able to keep perfectly?

 

[Magenta]

Yes,Paul must have been a Calvanist.

1 Corinthians 2

Paul certainly did not subscribe to free will as per Romans 7:15-20.

The free willers toss full paragraphs out of their theology.

Yes, everyone failed! So why did God give commands that He knew no one would be able to keep perfectly?

According to some here, He is unfair.

 

[Rufus]

Paul certainly did not subscribe to free will as per Romans 7:15-20.

The free willers toss full paragraphs out of their theology.


According to some here, He is unfair.

There's only one right answer to my question I asked but all FWers here would be loathe to accept it. I wonder what the poor "adulteress" thought who was caught in sin after Jesus told her to go her way and sin no more (Jn 8:11)!? Was Jesus out of his gourd given what John wrote about about moral/spiritual perfectionism in his first epistle?

 

[Magenta]

There's only one right answer to my question I asked but all FWers here would be loathe to accept it. I wonder what the poor "adulteress" thought who was caught in sin after Jesus told her to go her way and sin no more (Jn 8:11)!? Was Jesus out of his gourd given what John wrote about about moral/spiritual perfectionism in his first epistle?

Well it just strikes me as very odd that because people can choose what colour of socks to wear they think the will of the natural man is inherently free to choose to love and believe in God despite everything said to the contrary in Scripture regarding that very matter (of the human will, not socks!) concerning the natural man. But then they have to ignore, twist, take out of context, and pretend a lot of other verses do not exist either so they can stick to their delusion that the natural man has a will that is free, and it is on that basis that they believe they have secured salvation for themselves. And we see the sorts of things they say to prop up their beliefs, such as God is unfair if He does the very thing Scripture shows Him doing over and over again in the Bible, and even that according to them Spiritual revelation is not necessary and becomes in their mind something to despise, even though Jesus said otherwise.

 

[rogerg]

Your life is riddled with choices everyday.

How can you say that you don't choose everyday to serve Jesus?

As a Christian your constantly in a state of spiritual warfare within.

Choices everyday of the week.

Yet you say; no one can choose the Lord or choose to serve the Lord, except the elect.

The spiritually dead are incapable of doing so. They must first be saved and made spiritually alive, but that is given only to the elect.

 

[Cranberry]

Your life is riddled with choices everyday.

How can you say that you don't choose everyday to serve Jesus?

As a Christian your constantly in a state of spiritual warfare within.

Choices everyday of the week.

Yet you say; no one can choose the Lord or choose to serve the Lord, except the elect.

God says.

Odd,how that fact meets resistance here.

 

[Cameron143]

Deadness is lostness, separated, not a lack of moral ability (being persuaded on the basis of the evidence and the veracity of the offer and trustworthiness of the God who offers) to respond to God’s appeals to be reconciled.

No where does scripture teach that spiritual deadness equals to corpse like inability to respond positively to God’s own gracious appeals.

It is a very bad theology that teaches that it is all about God’s effort to glorify Himself, even at the expense of humanity.

Sin separates man from God.
Man is dead in his sin.

So man is separated from God, but not because he is dead, but because he has sinned. Being dead spiritually simply means he lacks the ability to relate to God on a spiritual level. We know from Romans 1 that he can know of God's existence from creation and from Ecclesiastes through conscience. But he is helpless to relate to God on a spiritual level. The only way for this to happen is for God to quicken such a one.

Your definition conflates 2 related things in a causal way. Man is both separated from God and dead. Both are the result of sin, but they are still 2 separate things.

 

[Rufus]

Sin separates man from God.
Man is dead in his sin.

So man is separated from God, but not because he is dead, but because he has sinned. Being dead spiritually simply means he lacks the ability to relate to God on a spiritual level. We know from Romans 1 that he can know of God's existence from creation and from Ecclesiastes through conscience. But he is helpless to relate to God on a spiritual level. The only way for this to happen is for God to quicken such a one.

Your definition conflates 2 related things in a causal way. Man is both separated from God and dead. Both are the result of sin, but they are still 2 separate things.

Spiritual separation from God IS spiritual death. To be separated from God is to be severed from Spiritual Life, that is to say, from the life of God who himself is Life! He is the Author and Source of ALL life. And this is why the spiritually dead have no ability to choose to escape from that realm of death, which of course is only possible by having Life infused into their souls so that they can believe the gospel and repent. Lazarus was able to obey Christ's command to come out of his tomb only after Jesus raised him up -- only after his soul was reunited to his body.

 

[brightfame52]

The sad thing is that you have missed the point of the Gospel entirely. I hope you don't talk to the lost, you're doing more damage than good. Pity.

if you hate tulip you hate the Gospel of God, but you dont realize it, you have been deceived. What is sad is that truth like predestination, election are in the scriptures and you guys are deceived into thinking calvin put them there

 

[Rufus]

if you hate tulip you hate the Gospel of God, but you dont realize it, you have been deceived. What is sad is that truth like predestination, election are in the scriptures and you guys are deceived into thinking calvin put them there

That diabolically clever and infinitely inscrutable Calvin...

 

[brightfame52]

@Rufus

Lazarus was able to obey Christ's command to come out of his tomb only after Jesus raised him up -- only after his soul was reunited to his body.

Correct, and the elect are only able to obey the Gospel after the Sanctification of the Spirit which is regeneration 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The Spirits work in us is absolutely imperative if we are to obey the Gospel !

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

if you hate tulip you hate the Gospel of God,

Tulip is man made by Calvin and those who came after him. Show me the word or acronym in Word and I will believe your dogma. You can't because it isn't.

What is sad is that truth like predestination,...

I never once said I didn't believe in predestination.