Understanding God’s election

[ParticularWife]

So cain had no choice but to kill his righteous brother ? But before that Adam did have a choice whether or not to eat the fruit ?

Men do evil of their own will, but it is all foreordained at the will of God, for his own glory. God is sovereign over everything, including Sin, and no act can occur without his eternal decree.

 

[Cameron143]

My old boss use to say it's a myth that America is a free country. Because every citizen knows when we pay government to have a job nothing is free.

A boss says that.

I was impressed. lol

It's interesting that it's called an income tax when it is actually a tax on wages and salaries and tips. If you go back before the 2nd World War, you wouldn't find this to be the case. Income previous to this was defined as an increase produced through capital.

 

[Magenta]

So cain had no choice but to kill his righteous brother?

I honestly don't get how you get that from anything that I have said and we have spoken on this before also... not having a will that is free does not mean that men do not make choices... nor does it absolve them from the responsibility or the consequences of the choices they make. Over and over and over again we are told of the conditions that the natural man lives under. None of them say he must commit murder.

 

[Cranberry]

It's interesting that it's called an income tax when it is actually a tax on wages and salaries and tips. If you go back before the 2nd World War, you wouldn't find this to be the case. Income previous to this was defined as an increase produced through capital.

Remember when Kamala Harris copied Donald Trump's campaign promise? Saying she would repeal income tax on tips.

While the truth was when in the Senate it was Ms. Harris who broke the Senate tie and approved that tax.

Men do evil of their own will, but it is all foreordained at the will of God, for his own glory. God is sovereign over everything, including Sin, and no act can occur without his eternal decree.

Which is sustained by God Himself though it is sometimes hard to understand this with all the reporting of evil deeds occurring in the world.
Isaiah 55.

 

[Genez]

Of course, they were! The Jews considered God to be their FATHER and the FATHER claimed that the Jews were his "firstborn" -- sons and daughters to him;.

Their Father, yes...

But Jews were not the Bride to His Son.

The Bride applies only for the Church!

​

For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, ​

and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery—but I am talking ​

about Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32​

Paul did not say.....

This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ ​

and everyone who has ever believed. ​

And, there we have it...

 

[Magenta]

@Pilgrimshope the conversation on Free Will has absolutely nothing to do with the color of socks you may or may not choose to wear on any given day... just giving that as an example. There is a very clear distinction made in Scripture between what the natural man is capable of doing, and what the spiritual man is capable of doing. An unfortunate thing that sometimes gets lost in these discussions is the fact that many people ignore and deny what is said of the natural man, making no distinction between him and the spiritual man. Some of the characteristics of the natural man are detailed in the panel below. Scripture is also very plain that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Scripture also makes plain that a leopard cannot change his spots. Scripture also makes plain that an Ethiopian cannot change the color of his skin. The same is true of the natural man: he cannot change who he is through the sheer force of his will... only God can.

Man's depravity vs God's Grace

 

[Genez]

@Pilgrimshope the conversation on Free Will has absolutely nothing to do with the color of socks you may or may not choose to wear on any given day... just giving that as an example. There is a very clear distinction made in Scripture between what the natural man is capable of doing, and what the spiritual man is capable of doing. An unfortunate thing that sometimes gets lost in these discussions is the fact that many people ignore and deny what is said of the natural man, making no distinction between him and the spiritual man. Some of the characteristics of the natural man are detailed in the panel below. Scripture is also very plain that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Scripture also makes plain that a leopard cannot change his spots. Scripture also makes plain that an Ethiopian cannot change the color of his skin. The same is true of the natural man: he cannot change who he is through the sheer force of his will... only God can.

Man's depravity vs God's Grace

But God has made a way! Grace!

If medical science implants a device in the brain of someone who could not walk?
And, now he can walk?

Its his free will that he walks with!
The device does not make him walk.
It makes him able to walk.

Likewise...

Like the brain implant made the man able to walk...
Grace makes us able to believe.

But... It does not make us believe.

That is where Calvinists make a mistake in their logic

 

[Cameron143]

But God has made a way! Grace!

If medical science implants a device in the brain of someone who could not walk?
And, now he can walk?

Its his free will that he walks with!
The device does not make him walk.
It makes him able to walk.

Likewise...

Like the brain implant made the man able to walk...
Grace makes us able to believe.

But... It does not make us believe.

That is where Calvinists make a mistake in their logic

His ability to walk is a change in his condition. This is equivalent to being given something that you do not possess. The equivalence spiritually is to be given a new heart.
Your example doesn't conform to spiritual equivalence.

 

[Genez]

I think I understand and agree.

Here is the catch...

Sin has its origin in the flesh.
Jesus died for the sins of the world.
No one's sin has not been paid for.
All sins Jesus bore the penalty for on the Cross.

It's evil that sends a person to Hell.
Not simply lying. But creating falsehoods as a means to deny and suppress the truth.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness ​

and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since ​

what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain ​

to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his ​

eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood ​

from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

Romans 1:18-20​

 

[Genez]

His ability to walk is a change in his condition. This is equivalent to being given something that you do not possess. The equivalence spiritually is to be given a new heart.
Your example doesn't conform to spiritual equivalence.

In your mind, it does not.

 

[Cameron143]

In your mind, it does not.

You are correct sir. And thanks for the reply.

 

[Cranberry]

His ability to walk is a change in his condition. This is equivalent to being given something that you do not possess. The equivalence spiritually is to be given a new heart.
Your example doesn't conform to spiritual equivalence.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will...

Romans 9

 

[Magenta]

You are correct sir. And thanks for the reply.

The the need for a new heart is so evident in the truth of Scripture it's amazing how much it gets denied, with so many believing they can bring about this change in themselves through the force of their own will when Scripture makes plain that it is God's will working in us and through us. And then these people that don't understand try to insist that God acting unilaterally in any way is forcing us and kidnapping us against our will and making a hoax of repentance and salvation as if we never have a choice in the matter. They seem incapable of not walking in a ditch.

 

[cv5]

@Pilgrimshope the conversation on Free Will has absolutely nothing to do with the color of socks you may or may not choose to wear on any given day... just giving that as an example. There is a very clear distinction made in Scripture between what the natural man is capable of doing, and what the spiritual man is capable of doing. An unfortunate thing that sometimes gets lost in these discussions is the fact that many people ignore and deny what is said of the natural man, making no distinction between him and the spiritual man. Some of the characteristics of the natural man are detailed in the panel below. Scripture is also very plain that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Scripture also makes plain that a leopard cannot change his spots. Scripture also makes plain that an Ethiopian cannot change the color of his skin. The same is true of the natural man: he cannot change who he is through the sheer force of his will... only God can.

sawdust said:
God made us with volition, He expects us to use it.

cv5 said:
Did God anticipate that fallen man would have adequately actionable volition whereby a CHOICE could be made to enter into the Covenant and be redeemed?

Of course He did. Otherwise the plan of salvation would not be what it is.

Oh....and it certainly was for Abraham as well.

 

[cv5]

Men do evil of their own will, but it is all foreordained at the will of God, for his own glory. God is sovereign over everything, including Sin, and no act can occur without his eternal decree.

God foreordained evil you say?
Are you saying that God is the source of this evil?

 

[cv5]

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will...

Romans 9

Pre-destined huh?

PRESCRIBED (AS A RESULT of your CHOICE to entrust your life to Jesus God) DESINATION yet future. NOT PAST!

That is when you OBTAIN your inheritance. FUTURE.

The Calvinites blow that concept and then the whole lump gets leavened by error.

 

[Genez]

You are correct sir. And thanks for the reply.

You are here to tempt ....
To see whom you can get out of fellowship with the Spirit by getting them to sin.

If you did not know that?
Now... you do!

 

[cv5]

You are here to tempt ....

And these Greek wanna-be lawyers litter the debate landscape with "philosophical chaos bombs" ®

So that those seeking Christ are so shell shocked that they walk away dazed and confused.

[Luk 11:52 KJV]
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

This is my assessment of the dogma of Calvinite-ism.

 

[cv5]

The the need for a new heart is so evident in the truth of Scripture it's amazing how much it gets denied, with so many believing they can bring about this change in themselves through the force of their own will when Scripture makes plain that it is God's will working in us and through us. And then these people that don't understand try to insist that God acting unilaterally in any way is forcing us and kidnapping us against our will and making a hoax of repentance and salvation as if we never have a choice in the matter. They seem incapable of not walking in a ditch.

ThereRoseaLamb said:
Well the Word says that men love their sin and refuse to turn from it. I would say that is the answer to the question. We have free will to choose to love God and follow Him or to walk away. It's a pity so many choose their sinful lifestyle.

studier said:
Very simple.

cv5 said:
Exceedingly.
As if God wanted to make salvation utterly inscrutable and utterly unobtainable by even the humblest of men, let alone the greatest.

 

[Rufus]

I think I understand and agree.

Mr. Genez leaves very low hanging fruit to pick. He wants to know what sin could a bodiless soul commit. I wonder if he was really serious! How 'bout the fall of all the bodiless angels? Or did they fall without sinning?