Understanding God’s election

[brightfame52]

Folks, this wanna-be resident scholar who prides himself as the smartest man in room just proved that he's a son of perdition since all the offspring of Satan are continuously bent on destroying what God builds, e.g. His Church (1Pet 5:8; Jn 10:10). (Like father, like son!) This truth, though, sadly is never obvious to the self-deceived; for unawareness is the by-product of self-deception.

We cant be sure theyre a son of perdition, thouhg they may act as one, remember saul of tarsus ? Who more sought to destroy the faith than he ? Gal 1:23

But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

So the most we can say is they act like one at the present time, but who knows, as saul was, he may be a vessel of mercy yet unconverted.

 

[Rufus]

Only to the ignorant--which I once was, but now I realize:

God is love (1JN 4:7-21)

God is just (2THS 1:6)

Choosing to save some but condemn others is neither--although God could be demonic if He so chooses.

God the Father could change His will, God the Son could sin, and God the Holy Spirit could inspire evil. It is possible for God to be tricky, because if God cannot do what He has decreed to be evil, then He would not be as free as volitional creatures, and there would be no basis for praising His holiness.

Paul (in RM 9:16-21) upholds the freedom of God to love or hate as He chooses. Just as God created physical laws such as gravity, so He created moral laws such as “love everyone” and determined a plan of salvation involving the atoning death of Messiah to win our redemption from hell. Thou shalt love (MT 22:37-40).

The cliche “might makes right” is true; it is because God is almighty that only He can determine what is right ultimately. There is no super-divine authority that determines God; God is self-determined. The only basis humans have for evaluating whether God is just or righteous is understanding how God’s acts and judgments are consistent with the moral principles He has ordained for those created in His image (RM 3:22-26).

If God were ever to change His mind, it would mean that God is tricky and that morality is ultimately arbitrary. Thus, ultimate reality would indeed be a farce. This is why we should not take God and divine love for granted. Instead, we should be eternally grateful that God has decreed loving to be right, and He promises never to change (ML 3:6). Let us praise God in the spirit of Psalm 66:1: “Shout with joy to God, all the earth! Sing to the glory of his name; Offer him glory and praise!”


.

Elaborate on why it would be unjust of God to save some and not save others. When you say such a thing, you're clearly implying that God is morally obligated to bestow saving grace upon all, which would be totally oxymoronic! How can grace be grace if God is duty-bound to bestow it? God didn't save any of the fallen angels and never made any salvific provision for them whatsoever. How in your world doesn't that make God unloving and unjust toward those moral agents?

 

[Magenta]

What the Bible actually teaches is that the natural man is a slave to sin among other things, such as
being taken captive to the will of the devil. Saying the the natural man can believe what is foolishness
to him while in the flesh, which is opposed to spiritual things they can neither receive nor accept,
is itself foolishness given that the natural man suppresses the truth in unrighteous and is hostile
in their mind toward God, a slave to sin and a lover of darkness. That all these and many other verses
get denied so often speaks volumes of how much free willers deny the very words of Jesus. But then
they also rail against the sovereignty of God, claiming if He acts unilaterally He is an unjust tyrant
making a hoax of salvation and repentance. And some even repeatedly claim that God is unfair.

 

[Kroogz]

Folks, this wanna-be resident scholar who prides himself as the smartest man in room just proved that he's a son of perdition since all the offspring of Satan are continuously bent on destroying what God builds, e.g. His Church (1Pet 5:8; Jn 10:10). (Like father, like son!) This truth, though, sadly is never obvious to the self-deceived; for unawareness is the by-product of self-deception.

Oh. The Irony. One can't make this stuff up! Ever heard of transference arrogance? This post is the EPITOME of the definition.

 

[Rufus]

We cant be sure theyre a son of perdition, thouhg they may act as one, remember saul of tarsus ? Who more sought to destroy the faith than he ? Gal 1:23

But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

So the most we can say is they act like one at the present time, but who knows, as saul was, he may be a vessel of mercy yet unconverted.

But because Jesus Christ made all the difference in Paul's life, this apostle truly bore fruit in keeping with repentance and faith! Where is the good fruit in many of these freewillers' posts? Didn't Jesus tell us that "you'll know them by their fruit"? CV5's mission in life is to destroy, not build up. It's to propagate lies, and not the truth. It's to lash out in anger, hatred and hostility with the poisonous tongue of a viper, instead of seasoning speech with grace.

Furthermore, all of us were sons of perdition until Jesus made the same kind of difference in each of our lives. We were all bearing bad fruit for death until our conversion.

 

[Magenta]

We were all bearing bad fruit for death until our conversion.

Romans 5:12 Ephesians 2:3 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. We were by nature children of wrath.
.

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 2:1-3 You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

 

[Rufus]

Oh. The Irony. One can't make this stuff up! Ever heard of transference arrogance? This post is the EPITOME of the definition.

You remind me what Paul said in Romans 1 since you obviously approve of CV5's destructive tendencies:

Rom 1:32
32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
NIV

But hey...keep studying your worldly-based psychology. Maybe you and Dr. Shrink Wrap can team up one day as partners in a psych practice.

 

[Cranberry]

“I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his 5 points is not the god whom you and I acknowledge and adore, the Creator and benevolent and governor of the world, but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin.”

—Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823.

Thomas Jefferson also said he ascribed to being a Materialist, an Epicurian, and a Unitarian.

Thomas Jefferson also didn't believe in the miracles described in scripture. He claimed they were a myth. He also didn't believe in God as Christians understand God to be through scripture.

Thomas Jefferson also did not believe Jesus was anything more than a human sage.

One might consider Thomas Jefferson's complicated relationship with Christianity before thinking his opinions of John Calvin are anything more than a Biblically uninformed criticism.
I say that because of his opinions regarding miracles and Christ and other factors.

http://www.monticello.org/research-...on-encyclopedia/jeffersons-religious-beliefs/

 

[Magenta]

Thomas Jefferson also said he ascribed to being a Materialist, an Epicurian, and a Unitarian.

Thomas Jefferson also didn't believe in the miracles described in scripture. He claimed they were a myth. He also didn't believe in God as Christians understand God to be through scripture.

Thomas Jefferson also did not believe Jesus was anything more than a human sage.

One might consider Thomas Jefferson's complicated relationship with Christianity before thinking his opinions of John Calvin are anything more than a Biblically uninformed criticism.
I say that because of his opinions regarding miracles and Christ and other factors.

http://www.monticello.org/research-...on-encyclopedia/jeffersons-religious-beliefs/

The Jefferson Bible is a travesty.

 

[Rufus]

HeIsHere said:


So basically they were able to believe because it was physical salvation, you are pushing this aside as an object lesson or type for believing in/trusting in Christ Jesus for salvation.

I knew there would be a catch.

The only "catch" here is that you're trying to make a type into the actual antitype. Self-preservation in terms of physical existence in an instinct that is in both men and animals -- and a very strong instinct to boot. The second group Jews whom God spared had empirical evidence of what would happen if they didn't do as Moses instructed.

 

[Rufus]

Thomas Jefferson also said he ascribed to being a Materialist, an Epicurian, and a Unitarian.

Thomas Jefferson also didn't believe in the miracles described in scripture. He claimed they were a myth. He also didn't believe in God as Christians understand God to be through scripture.

Thomas Jefferson also did not believe Jesus was anything more than a human sage.

One might consider Thomas Jefferson's complicated relationship with Christianity before thinking his opinions of John Calvin are anything more than a Biblically uninformed criticism.
I say that because of his opinions regarding miracles and Christ and other factors.

http://www.monticello.org/research-...on-encyclopedia/jeffersons-religious-beliefs/

I wonder if we should infer from Kroog's post that he feels a strong kinsman-like connection to Jefferson? Kroog might have more in common with Jefferson than ever imagined or bargained for.

 

[Rufus]

This is why they obfuscate and try to sound like mainstream Christianity. This is the inevitable conclusion of the calvies.

This truth about Calvinism doesn't "sell" to the majority and they know it.
~~~~
John Calvin
-quote
by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god though the reason does not appear, they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction. – (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 121)
~~~~
Calvies realize that their "truth" will be rejected. So they are "stealthy" with their wording.

They say over and over that 6x2=12. And If you point out the fact that, well then, 12/2=6....they scream you don't understand! You misrepresent what we believe!

Neither does the Gospel! So...you're not saying very much given the doctrine of remnant theology.

 

[rogerg]

I still cannot understand why Calvinists debate with those who do not believe the way they do, knowing full well God has ordained them to believe the way they do. In the end, they are debating against that which God has ordained.

Edification. No one knows beforehand who is of the elect and who isn't - when and if they'll respond to it. Nor is it
the edifier's responsibility to even consider it. Their charge is only to disseminate it.

 

[brightfame52]

@Rufus

But because Jesus Christ made all the difference in Paul's life, this apostle truly bore fruit in keeping with repentance and faith! Where is the good fruit in many of these freewillers' posts? Didn't Jesus tell us that "you'll know them by their fruit"

Then you cant have fellowship with them if you see no fruit . I didnt say you cant not claim them as a believer who is teaching and opposing the True Gospel, just have no fellowship with unfuitful works of darkness Eph 5 11

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

However, to put them in hell , I see no warrent for that. I know Jesus could do that because He knew who belonged to the serpent seed, and at times the Apostles knew, like Paul here Acts 13:9-10

9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

 

[Rufus]

The Jefferson Bible is a travesty.

If I recall correctly, Jefferson was a Deist, wasn't he?

 

[Magenta]

The only "catch" here is that you're trying to make a type into the actual antitype. Self-preservation in terms of physical existence in an instinct that is in both men and animals -- and a very strong instinct to boot. The second group Jews whom God spared had empirical evidence of what would happen if they didn't do as Moses instructed.

One thing I notice is that few make allowances for the complexities of human nature paired with the
ability of God to meet people exactly where they are at, not a difficulty for God given His omniscience.
And it strikes me as strange also that supernatural experiences get mocked and scorned, though Jesus
did say this would happen. As to my former statement: I turned to God and asked for help without
believing the Bible, long before I ever came to believe He was Who He said He was. But some here
would have us believe that any who turn are automatically full blown believers already, as if every
atheist in a fox hole was suddenly converted while calling to God for help. Not that I was an atheist.
I never was. But I did not believe in the One True God, either... until I was almost fifty.
Meanwhile, when I cried out to Him for help, years before my conversion, I was delivered.

 

[cv5]

Folks, this..........resident scholar who prides himself as the smartest man in room

Like Abraham in Genesis 14, I cannot possibly accept flatteries and bribes from the King of Sodom.

Nor can I thank you for trying.

 

[Cranberry]

I wonder if we should infer from Kroog's post that he feels a strong kinsman-like connection to Jefferson? Kroog might have more in common with Jefferson than ever imagined or bargained for.

I've arrived at the opinion the faith of certain ones here is that of Discordianism.

 

[Kroogz]

So basically they were able to believe because it was physical salvation, you are pushing this aside as an object lesson or type for believing in/trusting in Christ Jesus for salvation.

I knew there would be a catch.

I don't think the average calvie understands this dilemma. Calvin surely did and most "heavily invested" calvies do also.

They need to live "as if" their doctrine is false. They need to live as if there is libertarian freewill in this physical life. If they didn't, and lived "as if" their doctrine was truth, they would be labeled as insane!(And honestly, it is IMPOSSIBLE to live "as If" their determinism is true and they KNOW this.)

John Calvin : "Go about your office as if nothing is determined in any part, yet believe that nothing happens except by the arrangement of God.".