Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Here, look, it's easy to see, I think (but kind of tired right now so I may not have gotten the logic entirely straight).

If, as I understand the millennium reign correctly, for those saved, at the very beginning of it, they (supposedly) will be raised; however, it would then be impossible for there to be a thousand-year period after that raising, because the raising will occur on the last day. With it happening on the last day, there obviously cannot be more days to follow it in order to accommodate another a thousand years.


[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Jhn 12:48 KJV] 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

This is also substantiated by 1co 15:52, where we are told the dead shall be raised at the last trump. The last trump is sounded
on the last day I believe. The last trump is the seventh (last) trumpet and is sounded by the seventh angel.

[1Co 15:52 KJV] 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[Rev 10:6-7 KJV]
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Well...in dispensationalism, there are multiples of everything...including "the last day".

 

[Genez]

There is no Millennial reign

Not yet.

First, the Rapture must take place.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, ​

with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet-call of God, and the ​

dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left ​

will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ​

And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore, encourage one another with ​

these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18​

Then the seven-year Tribulation period.

Then! And, only then! The Millennium will come into being.

What are you going to be doing?

 

[Genez]

Well...in dispensationalism, there are multiples of everything...including "the last day".

Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge,
But he who hates correction is stupid.

Proverbs 12:1
New King James Version​

Fine company you keep....

 

[GWH]

But God is MORE than love! You guys should take Solomon's advice and avoid EXTREMES (Eccl 7:18). And a doctrine becomes extreme when it is consistently advanced, taught and preached on at the expense of other important doctrines.

Apparently you missed my essay about God, so please let me catch you up on where I am coming from at least:

I will share my understanding of the NT concept of God, “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” (1TM 1:17), in terms of seven words. Four terms are used to describe (but not explain and certainly not “box in”) the supernatural power of God: omnipotent (almighty), omniscient (all-knowing/ intelligent), omnipresent (everywhere), and omnitemporal (eternal). “Natural laws” actually are God’s ongoing first miracle (RM1:20), and supernatural resurrection to judgment will be the final miracle (HB 9:27-28, 1CR 15:12-26).

If the NT is not too good to be true, then the Lord of the universe is neither dictatorial nor distant, but rather relates to humanity. Although we cannot comprehend the infinite God completely, hopefully we can do so sufficiently in order to achieve the type of relationship God desires to have with humanity (JN 14:9-25). God desires communion.

1. God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2TM 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per HB 9:27)–called His permissive will.

2. God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (JR 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., ACTS 6:3, 1CR 1:25, CL 2:2-3, JM 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Romans 11:33-34 (echoing IS 40:13-14) and Daniel 2:20-23.

Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (PS 94:11, MT 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (ACTS 2:23, RM 8:29, 11:2, 1PT 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (JR 1:5). If this view is correct (which I find incomprehensible a la Kant), it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. (Surely this universe is not a replay of a history that has already happened!) God allows eddies in the river of salvation.

3. Omnipotence is connected with omnitemporality (in RV 1:18): “I am the Apha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Romans 1:20 refers to God’s “eternal power”, and Jeremiah 10:10&16 names God “the Lord Almighty”, who is true, living and eternal.

4. God’s infinite power implies omnipresence (per PS 139:7-8). God transcends spatial existence while being immanent in all points of space. (Other scriptural support for this view includes 1KG 8:27, IS 66:1, JR 23:33, ACTS 17:27-28 and EPH 4:6.) God’s superiority over His creation must be viewed as a matter of degree or quantitatively in order to preserve the continuity between God and humanity that would be requisite for communication (like the need for a common language and culture cited in Part I). However, the Bible teaches that God also differs from creatures in kind or qualitatively, so that attaining equality with Deity is impossible (IS 55:9, EPH 3:19). We can be like God (GN 3:3), and we can become one with the Son of God (JN 17:21-23), but we cannot become God (cf. Humanism).

In addition to the omni-attributes related to power, Paul referred to God’s “nature” (in RM 1:20), which may be described in three ways: love, truth and justice. These often are called the moral attributes of God.

5. The Bible says that God is (omni)love and true love comes from God (1JN 4:7-21, RM 5:5), so volitional creatures or souls can love only by reflecting, imitating or cooperating with the Creator’s love. Although the Bible speaks of God hating Esau (ML 1:3) and other evil people (HS 9:15), Jesus’ teaching of love for enemies (MT 5:44) reveals that God loves all creatures including Satan but hates their sinful choices.

It seems logical to assume that the all-loving God would create the best possible world or one in which the greatest percentage of persons may attain ultimate joy (1TM 2:3-4, 2PT 3:9). God may have created all possible kinds of worlds simultaneously: the world of dead matter, the world of living plants, the world of intelligent animals, and the world of morally accountable souls/humans. God’s world/way is best.

6. The Bible teaches that God is (omni)truth (JN 1:17, 8:40, 15:26, 17:17), so all truth is from God and manifests God’s Spirit. If any atheists are truthseekers, then they are not far from the kingdom of God (MK 12:34, 2THS 2:10, JN 18:37), because Jesus promised that those who seek will find (LK 11:9&13). Of course, if the truth is that there is no God or heaven, then what we believe is no more significant than the ideology of a rock or some other evolved collection of atoms (ECC 3:20)! Truth or God’s Word is represented in the Bible as light (JN 1:1-9), which also signifies God’s glory (LK 2:9).

7. The Bible also teaches that God is (omni)just (RM 3:25-26, 9:14, 2THS 1:6). This doctrine is called theodicy. It means that we should be careful lest our explanations of God’s will seem unloving or unfair. If a person cannot explain how a loving God could order the execution of babies (JSH 6:17, 8:2), then possibly He did not do so. Synonyms for justness include righteousness and goodness (IS 5:16).

 

[Cranberry]

Since denying what God reports of Himself (all-lovingness) in MT 4:44-48, JN 3:16, RM 5:5-8, EPH 3:17-19, 1TM 2:3-4, & 1JN 4:7-19 is dishonest, why do you do it?!

You wilfully ignore the clobber verses. That is dishonest.

 

[Genez]

As long as they can keep some of us away from having a continuous dialogue that builds upon sound teaching?

They have done their job.

For they are agents of the lower atmosphere.

 

[Rufus]

Not yet.

First, the Rapture must take place.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, ​

with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet-call of God, and the ​

dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left ​

will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ​

And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore, encourage one another with ​

these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18​

Then the seven-year Tribulation period.

Then! And, only then! The Millennium will come into being.

What are you going to be doing?

As for me, I'm already doing it! I'm looking past this current "millennial" reign to the Day of the Lord, as Peter instructed (2Pet 3:14).

 

[cv5]

Correct, I do not.

No surprise to me.

Altogether those passage indisputably prove:
-the first coming
-the death burial and resurrection
-the second coming
-the repentance, redemption and restoration of the Nation Israel
-the millennial reign

And proves beyond all refutation that Reformed Calvinitie-ism is dead wrong heretical garbage.

 

[cv5]

As for me, I'm already doing it! I'm looking past this current "millennial" reign to the Day of the Lord, as Peter instructed (2Pet 3:14).

Really? Like the first 7 years?

Bummer to be you.

 

[GWH]

You wilfully ignore the clobber verses. That is dishonest.

Please cite the ones you have in mind and if I have ignored them I will add them to my posts/website. Here is what I have now:

Three issues frequently are cited as constituting stumbling-blocks to belief in the NT God for some people. The first problematic issue is reconciling God’s power and love with the fact of evil and its consequence. A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

Even if God were to prove Himself to skeptics by means of a miracle, they might believe for awhile and then as their memories began to fade they would probably think that God had died and revert to their former doubt—necessitating an endless string of miracles (recapitulating the story of the Israelites on the way to Canaan after the exodus from Egypt).

However, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.

God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative).

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Why would anyone choose to believe otherwise? Only God knows why people choose atheism. It is a mystery stated by Isaiah, which is cited by Jesus (in MT 13:14-15): “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.” Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists (MT 12:39, 24:24, JN 20:29 & 1CR 1:22). In other words, atheists presume to know better than God; they want to usurp divine authority to determine what is best or good, but they may one day (at the eschaton per RV 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. RM 2:5-8 & 2CR 13:5; heart/mind: hard or open?).

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9, 2PT 3:7 & RV 20:13-14).

 

[Rufus]

Apparently you missed my essay about God, so please let me catch you up on where I am coming from at least:

I will share my understanding of the NT concept of God, “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” (1TM 1:17), in terms of seven words. Four terms are used to describe (but not explain and certainly not “box in”) the supernatural power of God: omnipotent (almighty), omniscient (all-knowing/ intelligent), omnipresent (everywhere), and omnitemporal (eternal). “Natural laws” actually are God’s ongoing first miracle (RM1:20), and supernatural resurrection to judgment will be the final miracle (HB 9:27-28, 1CR 15:12-26).

If the NT is not too good to be true, then the Lord of the universe is neither dictatorial nor distant, but rather relates to humanity. Although we cannot comprehend the infinite God completely, hopefully we can do so sufficiently in order to achieve the type of relationship God desires to have with humanity (JN 14:9-25). God desires communion.

1. God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2TM 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per HB 9:27)–called His permissive will.

2. God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (JR 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., ACTS 6:3, 1CR 1:25, CL 2:2-3, JM 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Romans 11:33-34 (echoing IS 40:13-14) and Daniel 2:20-23.

Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (PS 94:11, MT 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (ACTS 2:23, RM 8:29, 11:2, 1PT 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (JR 1:5). If this view is correct (which I find incomprehensible a la Kant), it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. (Surely this universe is not a replay of a history that has already happened!) God allows eddies in the river of salvation.

3. Omnipotence is connected with omnitemporality (in RV 1:18): “I am the Apha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Romans 1:20 refers to God’s “eternal power”, and Jeremiah 10:10&16 names God “the Lord Almighty”, who is true, living and eternal.

4. God’s infinite power implies omnipresence (per PS 139:7-8). God transcends spatial existence while being immanent in all points of space. (Other scriptural support for this view includes 1KG 8:27, IS 66:1, JR 23:33, ACTS 17:27-28 and EPH 4:6.) God’s superiority over His creation must be viewed as a matter of degree or quantitatively in order to preserve the continuity between God and humanity that would be requisite for communication (like the need for a common language and culture cited in Part I). However, the Bible teaches that God also differs from creatures in kind or qualitatively, so that attaining equality with Deity is impossible (IS 55:9, EPH 3:19). We can be like God (GN 3:3), and we can become one with the Son of God (JN 17:21-23), but we cannot become God (cf. Humanism).

In addition to the omni-attributes related to power, Paul referred to God’s “nature” (in RM 1:20), which may be described in three ways: love, truth and justice. These often are called the moral attributes of God.

5. The Bible says that God is (omni)love and true love comes from God (1JN 4:7-21, RM 5:5), so volitional creatures or souls can love only by reflecting, imitating or cooperating with the Creator’s love. Although the Bible speaks of God hating Esau (ML 1:3) and other evil people (HS 9:15), Jesus’ teaching of love for enemies (MT 5:44) reveals that God loves all creatures including Satan but hates their sinful choices.

It seems logical to assume that the all-loving God would create the best possible world or one in which the greatest percentage of persons may attain ultimate joy (1TM 2:3-4, 2PT 3:9). God may have created all possible kinds of worlds simultaneously: the world of dead matter, the world of living plants, the world of intelligent animals, and the world of morally accountable souls/humans. God’s world/way is best.

6. The Bible teaches that God is (omni)truth (JN 1:17, 8:40, 15:26, 17:17), so all truth is from God and manifests God’s Spirit. If any atheists are truthseekers, then they are not far from the kingdom of God (MK 12:34, 2THS 2:10, JN 18:37), because Jesus promised that those who seek will find (LK 11:9&13). Of course, if the truth is that there is no God or heaven, then what we believe is no more significant than the ideology of a rock or some other evolved collection of atoms (ECC 3:20)! Truth or God’s Word is represented in the Bible as light (JN 1:1-9), which also signifies God’s glory (LK 2:9).

7. The Bible also teaches that God is (omni)just (RM 3:25-26, 9:14, 2THS 1:6). This doctrine is called theodicy. It means that we should be careful lest our explanations of God’s will seem unloving or unfair. If a person cannot explain how a loving God could order the execution of babies (JSH 6:17, 8:2), then possibly He did not do so. Synonyms for justness include righteousness and goodness (IS 5:16).

I find it odd that you totally omitted God's "chief" attribute: HOLINESS! You say (and rightfully so) that God *IS* love. But the prophet also said Holy, Holy, Holy *IS* the Lord of Hosts. (When something is repeated more than once in scripture, it is designed to catch our attention. We are to consider it as extremely important!) But even more than this, God's NAME *IS* Holy (Isa 57:15). This means He is holy in his essence. It certainly appears that Holiness is the controlling attribute of God for it governs all that God thinks, says and does. A great example of this can be seen in various places of the OT whenever God sharply rebukes Israel for its abominable practice of offering up their own children as sacrifices to pagan gods. God would often say about that practice (to paraphrase), "such a thing never entered my mind..." I suppose one could argue that God said that out of his love or out of his holiness or even both.

 

[rogerg]

Hmmm...technically, that isn't true. We're in the "millennial" reign. The spiritual, invisible kingdom was inaugurated at Pentecost and will be consummated at the Parousia at which time it will become the eternal, visible kingdom. Christ is already reigning in his kingdom from heaven and we are reigning with Him. I'm sure you're aware that numbers in scripture are often used figuratively in scripture, and this is especially true of the number "1,000" which simply denotes a long, indefinite period of time.

P.S. Have a Joyous and Blessed Christmas, brother.

Correct, Rufus, my post wasn't as clear as it should have been that's why I made a second post in order to clarify - that there isn't one according to the way he perceives it to be. I completely agree with you that we're in it now. I botched it.
Thank you, Rufus, and a Joyous and Blessed Christmas to you and to yours, brother.

 

[rogerg]

No surprise to me.

Altogether those passage indisputably prove:
-the first coming
-the death burial and resurrection
-the second coming
-the repentance, redemption and restoration of the Nation Israel
-the millennial reign

And proves beyond all refutation that Reformed Calvinitie-ism is dead wrong heretical garbage.

Don't think so

 

[Rufus]

Really? Like the first 7 years?

Bummer to be you.

It's a bummer you cannot believe Peter. He didn't tell his original audience to look for and hasten the rapture or 1,000-year kingdom. Instead, he told them to look for and hasten JUDGEMENT DAY -- the Day of the Lord -- when also the entire creation will be renewed. And the creation will not be renewed before or during the so-called 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ. The entire creation will be renewed on the LAST DAY!

 

[cv5]

It's a bummer you cannot believe Peter. He didn't tell his original audience to look for and hasten the rapture or 1,000-year kingdom. Instead, he told them to look for and hasten JUDGEMENT DAY -- the Day of the Lord -- when also the entire creation will be renewed. And the creation will not be renewed before or during the so-called 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ. The entire creation will be renewed on the LAST DAY!

Right. Enjoy your DOTL 7 year tribulation Calvinite guy.

 

[cv5]

Don't think so

More like "don't think".

 

[Genez]

As for me, I'm already doing it! I'm looking past this current "millennial" reign to the Day of the Lord, as Peter instructed (2Pet 3:14).

Enjoy your weird stuff....

May God bless.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thats false, He died to pay the penalty of sin for Gods elect only.

“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2-4‬ ‭

He died for those he loved

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Genez]

More like "don't think".

There is a difference between "don't think."
And... "Can't think."

Without grace, one can not think correctly.
Like teenage thrill seekers... they jump in and hot wire the Word of God, and speed out for a 'pride-ride.'

 

[rogerg]

More like "don't think".

Correct, you don't. But it does show progress on your part that you're willing to acknowledge it.