Understanding God’s election

[keepingthingsreal]

I asked a question you have yet to answer. If God doesn't intervene supernaturally, would Isaac have been born?

Here is the account.

Gen 18:9
And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
Gen 18:10
And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
Gen 18:11
Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
Gen 18:12
Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
Gen 18:13
And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Gen 18:14
Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Gen 18:15
Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

At 90 years of age (Gen. 17:17), it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women, or Sarah's menstrual periods had permanently ceased (menopause), thereby making it impossible for her to bear a child by strictly natural means. Therefore, the LORD twice said that he would return to Sarah at the time appointed, and that she would have a son according to the time of life. How did the LORD return to her?

Rom 9:9
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Heb 11:11
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Through faith, or by believing God's word of promise in relation to Isaac's birth, Sarah received strength to conceive seed. The word which is here translated into English as strength is dynamis, or it is the same word used to describe the power of the Holy Ghost which came upon the disciples on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:8).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1411/kjv/tr/0-1/

In other words, the LORD returned to Sarah (Gen. 18:10, 14) via the power of the Holy Ghost, and there was a supernatural element to Isaac's conception. With such in mind, in his epistle to the Galatians, Paul said that Isaac was born after the Spirit (Gal. 4:29). Here is the account, and, in context, it is not going to help your erroneous position one iota. Instead, it will refute the nonsense which you currently believe.

Gal 4:21
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

For starters, who was Paul writing to? He was writing to foolish Galatians who had been bewitched or who had received the Spirit through faith in Christ, but now desired to go back to being under the law (Gal. 4:21).

Gal 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Paul went on to tell those who desired to go back to being under the law that they had fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Oh, wait. I thought that God's grace was irresistible. It is only irresistible in the fairy tale which several of you are espousing. Anyhow, Paul told these Galatians that the accounts surrounding Hagar and Ishmael, and Sarah and Isaac, were an allegory. In case anybody following this thread does not know what an allegory is, it is the following.

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Allegory

ALLEGORY. The word is a combination of ἄλλος, G257, other, and ἀγορεύειν, to speak, and it means, literally, to speak in a way that is other than what is meant. Allegory, therefore, is a tool whereby a writer conveys hidden, mysterious truths by the use of words which also have a literal meaning.

Although there is a literal meaning to the accounts surrounding Hagar and Ishmael, and Sarah and Isaac, there are also hidden mysterious truths in those accounts, and Paul told us exactly what those hidden mysterious truths are.

Gal 4:24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Allegorically, the accounts surrounding Hagar and Ishmael, and Sarah and Isaac, show us the two covenants, or the old covenant/old testament and the new covenant/new testament.

In the same way that Hagar was a bondwoman and Ishmael was born after the flesh, the old covenant/old testament, with only a fleshly circumcision, leaves people in bondage to sin, and this is precisely the type of bondage that Jerusalem which now is was under. In other words, by seeking justification through the old covenant/old testament, earthly Jerusalem in the time of Paul, and today as well, was mostly in bondage to sin because justification can never come via the old covenant/old testament.

At the same time, in the same way that Sarah was a freewoman and Isaac was born after the Spirit, the new covenant/new testament, with a circumcision in the heart or spirit (Rom. 2:29), provides liberation from sin, and this is precisely the type of liberation which Jerusalem which is above provides. In other words, by seeking justification by faith in Jesus Christ, whose supernatural conception Isaac's conception foreshadowed, we can also become children of promise (Gal. 4:28) through faith in the promised Messiah.

I ran out of space, so I will conclude in my next post.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

How does any of this help your position? People need to become children of promise through faith in Christ, and not because of something that God allegedly forced upon them before the foundation of the world. Furthermore, according to Paul, whose words people like you wrest, not only can those who currently believe be cut off, but those who currently do not believe can be grafted in.

Rom 11:19
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Why would the Christians at Rome need to fear being cut off if they stopped standing by faith if the nonsense you and others here are espousing about election was true? You don't know what you are talking about, so you should repent before both God and man.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

I should add this:

Gal 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

In context, the Jews who seek justification via the old covenant/old testament are going to be cast out in the same manner that Hagar and Ishmael were cast out. They will not be cast out because God didn't elect or predestinate them to salvation before the foundation of the world. Instead, and in total contrast to the absolute nonsense that you and certain others here are espousing, they will be cast out for seeking justification through the law instead of through faith in Christ.

Rom 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

You and certain others here truly do need to repent because you are greatly misrepresenting God's actual plan of salvation.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

It's simple alright, but election is not according to the way you state it. While Christ was elected Savior by the Father before the foundation of the world, the verses below clearly state who those are that Christ will save: they that God had chosen unto salvation from before the foundation of the world. Read the verses closely, it spelled out quite clearly in them beyond debate.

[1Pe 1:2,3,4 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Lol.

You are seeking to refute my claim that God, in his foreknowledge, knew who would ultimately be found IN HIM (Eph. 1:4) or in Christ by citing me a verse about God's foreknowledge? As another poster here recently said, this is almost comical, but it actually quite frightening. People still need to be sanctified by the Spirit, and that happens as a direct result of their FREEWILL CHOICE to place saving faith in Christ, and not as the result of something which God allegedly forced upon them before the foundation of the world.

Anyhow, you need a lot of help, and I am placing you on ignore. I have presented more than enough biblical support for my position. You can reject it until your dying breath of YOUR OWN FREEWILL CHOICE if you want to, but I would not advise that you do. Bye.

 

[rogerg]

ou are seeking to refute my claim that God, in his foreknowledge, knew who would ultimately be found IN HIM (Eph. 1:4) or in Christ by citing me a verse about God's foreknowledge? As another poster here recently said, this is almost comical, but it actually quite frightening. People still need to be sanctified by the Spirit, and that happens as a direct result of their FREEWILL CHOICE to place saving faith in Christ, and not as the result of something which God allegedly forced upon them before the foundation of the world.

Sorry, no, not possible.

 

[Cameron143]

I should add this:

Gal 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

In context, the Jews who seek justification via the old covenant/old testament are going to be cast out in the same manner that Hagar and Ishmael were cast out. They will not be cast out because God didn't elect or predestinate them to salvation before the foundation of the world. Instead, and in total contrast to the absolute nonsense that you and certain others here are espousing, they will be cast out for seeking justification through the law instead of through faith in Christ.

Rom 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

You and certain others here truly do need to repent because you are greatly misrepresenting God's actual plan of salvation.

You did well with the scriptures, in the main, in Galatians. But nothing you posted refuted what I shared concerning Isaac. In fact, you agreed his birth was supernatural, and would not have occurred apart from the intervention of God. This is true of all who are born from above.
Isaac is not the only allegory concerning election. Israel is also allegorical. All the other nations were established by earthly measures...location, language, etc. But not Israel. They were created by God. Those who were once not a people became the people of God. All other nations traced their genealogies to Adam, but Israel has Abraham as their father. And while not all of Israel was the Israel God, most other people groups were excluded from the promises and salvation.
Election isn't selection, as some suppose. Selection is choosing indiscriminately from all that exist. Election is choosing beforehand intentionally to create what would not have come through natural means. It's a supernatural creation, and is easily demonstrated from scripture.

We all have an understanding of God that we believe to be accurate. And we all hold some errors within our understanding God. I recognize that people who disagree with what I have shared don't do so because they can refute what I shared scripturally. I certainly don't believe you have. But people will still cling to their ideas about who God is rather than allowing scripture to reveal Him as He actually is.

As far as repentance goes, I'll wait on the conviction of the Spirit, rather than the accusation of men. But I'll leave you with the caution of Jesus to remove the beam from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from another's.

 

[Genez]

You think you are teaching people things by saying random things not supported by the scriptures you share and then disparage people for asking where you find something in scripture.
Hint: you aren't teaching something if you don't have scriptural support. The scriptures you do share should also mean what you say they do.

I do not wish to disparage anyone
Anyone can ask.
And, some have.

But how, you have been asking?
It is designed to disparage.
That's the problem I have detected...

You're nothing new.

 

[Rufus]

Did you even bother to look at the context?
See how simple it was to see if you just looked for it...

Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, ​

the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” So you are no longer a slave, but ​

God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.​

​

Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by ​

nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known ​

by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable ​

forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? Galatians 4:6-9​

Can not figure that out for yourself?

​

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. ​

Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:23​

​

As Galatians 4:6-9, plainly states?
That believers are known by God?
Those he never knew?
Were never saved!

How can you play stupid with that?

Yet... Proverbs 12:1, says? ... you might try.

...........

Another pointless post. But at least you seem to agree (for now) that Jesus never "knew" the non-elect. Thanks for that "remarkable insight" that those Christ never knew "were never saved". I do seem to recall saying quite often that those in Mat 7:23 were false believers, which makes this passage one of the most sobering in all scripture since these people were obviously very self-deceived. They had conned themselves into believing that they were the real deal. This demonstrates the pernicious nature of self-deception because such people are unaware of their true condition, standing or status.

 

[HeIsHere]

This is true of all who are born from above.

The intervention is the "gift of salvation" freely offered and freely received through a person's faith, meaning the person has exercised faith IN Christ Jesus who has made the offer.

You can go all over the Bible looking for God performing miracles and working for the culmination of His plan of salvation, however the gift of salvation is always received by exercising personal faith in the specific offer and promises of God.

And those who perish are those who have chosen to not seek and find or who have refused the free gift offering because of their foolishness.

And your side steps of "what about" this and that, have no bearing on what God has clearly set as the parameters of receiving the gift of salvation as an act of personal faith.

But people will still cling to their ideas about who God is rather than allowing scripture to reveal Him as He actually is.

Scripture clearly reveals this about God which is complete opposite of a God who creates some for election and creating others with no opportunity for election.

It does not stated "all" elected, this is the God of Scripture not the one who is morally ambivalent, His good pleasure must always be in line with His moral character, your theology places the "all-mightiness" of God above His moral character which is wrong.

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4​

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9​

Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.” Ezekiel 18:27-32​

 

[Rufus]

Lol.

You are seeking to refute my claim that God, in his foreknowledge, knew who would ultimately be found IN HIM (Eph. 1:4) or in Christ by citing me a verse about God's foreknowledge? As another poster here recently said, this is almost comical, but it actually quite frightening. People still need to be sanctified by the Spirit, and that happens as a direct result of their FREEWILL CHOICE to place saving faith in Christ, and not as the result of something which God allegedly forced upon them before the foundation of the world.

Anyhow, you need a lot of help, and I am placing you on ignore. I have presented more than enough biblical support for my position. You can reject it until your dying breath of YOUR OWN FREEWILL CHOICE if you want to, but I would not advise that you do. Bye.

There's not a verse in all scripture that supports your ill-conceived, spurious claim. Show me one verse that teaches that "God in his foreknowledge knew who would ultimately be found in Him". The only way you can come up with that is by reading your presupposition into scripture, which is strictly forbidden since that method of interpretation adds to God's Word what isn't there.

 

[Rufus]

The intervention is the "gift of salvation" freely offered and freely received through a person's faith, meaning the person has exercised faith IN Christ Jesus who has made the offer.

You can go all over the Bible looking for God performing miracles and working for the culmination of His plan of salvation which is always received by exercising personal faith in the promises of God.

And those who perish are those who have chosen to not seek and find or who have refused the free gift offering because of their foolishness.

And your side steps of "what about" this and that, have no bearing on what God has clearly set as the parameters of receiving the gift of salvation as an act of personal faith.



Scripture clearly reveals this about God which is complete opposite of the God who creates some for election and creating others with no opportunity for election.

It does not stated "all" elected, this is the God of Scripture not the one who is morally ambivalent, His good pleasure must always be in line with His moral character, your theology places the "all-mightiness" of God above His moral character which is wrong.

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4​

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9​

Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.” Ezekiel 18:27-32​

You have taken the 1Tim and 2Pet passages totally out of context! Therefore, they do not prove what you are so desperately trying to prove. The "all men" in the former passage is limited in the context to Gentiles. And in the latter passage, God does not wish for any of his elect to perish, since God's patience is directed toward the elect, and not toward the world at large.

 

[HeIsHere]

You have taken the 1Tim and 2Pet passages totally out of context! Therefore, they do not prove what you are so desperately trying to prove. The "all men" in the former passage is limited in the context to Gentiles. And in the latter passage, God does not wish for any of his elect to perish, since God's patience is directed toward the elect, and not toward the world at large.

"all" means "all" until is doesn't.
I know the game.

The different grammatical forms of πας means "all, the whole, every kind of," it does depends on context and yet it does not change the meaning of the word, the changes are morphological.

 

[Rufus]

"all" means "all" until is doesn't.
I know the game.

The different grammatical forms of πας means "all, the whole, every kind of," it does depends on context and yet it does not change the meaning of the word, the changes are morphological.

Context determines HOW words are used! So, yes...context can change the meaning of a word. This is why it's so important to do word usage studies because how words are used in any given context ultimately determine their meaning in their particular contexts. Take this passage, as an example:

Mark 1:37
37 and having found him, they say to him, All seek thee.
Darby

According to you, "all" in this passage must mean each and every person in the world, right? So...the Incas in Peru, the Eskimos in Greenland, and the Apaches in America were all seeking after Jesus, right?

Let me know when you want to tackle 2Pet 3 -- the other passage you like to butcher.

 

[Cameron143]

I do not wish to disparage anyone
Anyone can ask.
And, some have.

But how, you have been asking?
It is designed to disparage.
That's the problem I have detected...

You're nothing new.

If that is truly how you feel, why would you to continue to encourage my poor behavior by addressing me? Why not cover my sin?

 

[Genez]

Another pointless post.

For you? Yes.
For others, who get it? No.

I'm kind of used to you by now.

 

[Genez]

If that is truly how you feel, why would you to continue to encourage my poor behavior by addressing me? Why not cover my sin?

Others are having the same problem with you.
That is why I choose to dialogue with you...

So, they can see how they feel about you, is not just with them.

Its all a part of the job.

 

[Cameron143]

Others are having the same problem with you.
That is why I choose to dialogue with you...

So, they can see how they feel about you, is not just with them.

Its all a part of the job.

You honestly have no self awareness. The very things I have said of you, you regurgitate to me, then pat yourself on the back for your wisdom and Christ-likeness.
If you want to be authoritative, at least to spiritual people, you need actually speak as one having authority, not as the scribes and Pharisees.
Because I do actually care about covering your sins, I won't be responding to you any further. I thought not addressing your posts unless you responded to mine would suffice. Clearly this is not the case.
Grace and peace.

 

[Rufus]

For you? Yes.
For others, who get it? No.

I'm kind of used to you by now.

Oh...so others get the point on top of your head... How sharp of your fan club.

 

[Kroogz]

God's patience is directed toward the elect

Rom 9:22
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?

 

[Genez]

You honestly have no self awareness. The very things I have said of you, you regurgitate to me, then pat yourself on the back for your wisdom and Christ-likeness.
If you want to be authoritative, at least to spiritual people, you need actually speak as one having authority, not as the scribes and Pharisees.
Because I do actually care about covering your sins, I won't be responding to you any further. I thought not addressing your posts unless you responded to mine would suffice. Clearly this is not the case.
Grace and peace.

Looks like you keep doing it all for a few that keep giving you a dumbs up....