Prove it from scripture.
You're assuming a true believer would want to "jump out of the Father's hand"; yet, Jesus taught differently. His sheep will always follow him -- not perfectly in this age but nonetheless substantially and essentially. His Sheep KNOW Jesus' voice and will listen to him (see John 10). Also, Jesus taught that he would never lose so much as one -- even the ones who you think would jump ship on Him. After all, it is NOT God's will that he ever lose even so much as one (Jn 6:38-40; 17:12).
And what you said above contradicts Rom 9 wherein it is basically stated that it doesn't depend of the man who desires or runs...BUT on God who has mercy.
They never did belong since their faith was spurious, making them false believers. Self-deception did its pernicious work in their hearts.
It more likely means that man's way is not in himself (Jer 10:23), and that God in his infinite wisdom knows how to bring into sync his will and the wills of his moral agents.
Yeah...is that what Pharaoh did? He jumped up and down with ecstatic joy in choosing to "cooperate" with God's demands?
Why did you exclude Jude 1 and 24 from your cites that speak to God's KEEPING of his saints? Or for that matter a large body of other scriptures that teach this truth to wit: Lk 22:31-32; Jn 6:38-40; 14:15-18; 17:12; 18:9; Rom 14:4; 1Cor 1:8-9; 2Cor 1:20-22; Php 1:6; Eph 1:13-14; 2Tim 4:18; Heb 7:22-25; 1Pet 1:5; Ps 31:23; 32:7; 37:23-24, 28; 40:11, 17; 97:10; 121:7-8; Prov 2:8?
The moral values of Fair, Balanced and Honesty should be highly esteemed by you.
1. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” refers to powers other than one’s own will. You - Prove it from scripture. Me - the Scriptures urging perseverance are the proof.
2. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. You - You're assuming a true believer would want to "jump out of the Father's hand"; yet, Jesus taught differently. His sheep will always follow him.
Me - And you're assuming a true believer does not have free will, but Jesus does not say "always"--MT 10:22 says he who endures to the end. Yes, it is not GOD's will that a sheep be lost, but sheep are free to stray.
3. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f). You - And what you said above contradicts Rom 9 wherein it is basically stated that it doesn't depend on the man who desires or runs...BUT on God who has mercy. Me - that means man cannot earn salvation, but only by means of accepting divine mercy.
4. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”. You -
They never did belong since their faith was spurious, making them false believers. Self-deception did its pernicious work in their hearts. Me - that means one cannot have assurance of salvation until death.
5. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
You - It more likely means that man's way is not in himself (Jer 10:23), and that God in his infinite wisdom knows how to bring into sync his will and the wills of his moral agents. Me - Agents are not moral unless they have free will; animals are amoral.
6. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions. You - Yeah...is that what Pharaoh did? He jumped up and down with ecstatic joy in choosing to "cooperate" with God's demands? Me - It does unless you want to blame God for the sins.
Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
You - crickets/silence/ignorance/excluding Scripture, being hypocritical by asking, "Why did you exclude Jude 1 and 24 from your cites that speak to God's KEEPING of his saints?" Me - Because I did not know they meant so much to you, but why do YOU exclude v.6&21?
We can discuss the others (including the ones you excluded) next time, if you will quote them for our consideration. Your list includes: Lk 22:31-32; Jn 6:38-40; 14:15-18; 17:12; 18:9; Rom 14:4; 1Cor 1:8-9; 2Cor 1:20-22; Php 1:6; Eph 1:13-14; 2Tim 4:18; Heb 7:22-25; 1Pet 1:5; Ps 31:23; 32:7; 37:23-24, 28; 40:11, 17; 97:10; 121:7-8; Prov 2:8.
TTYL
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