Yeah, once again you confuse the man with a good heart, the circumcised heart, and think the man with an uncircumcised heart can act toward God in the same way. And like you I wonder why any would say it is God's fault when man is responsible for the choices they make, and I have never said otherwise, though it does seem you are attempting to attribute that to me. How did it play out in your own life? I was drawn with loving kindness, but despite that could not believe until my heart was circumcised. In my own life I had from a very young age always known there was something but did not know what it was. I was also against religion in general and Christianity in particular as are many unbelievers. I was an unbeliever until I was almost fifty, and that does contribute to my understanding of the natural man whom I know quite well through my own personal experience of being that person. Perhaps people who grew up thinking they always believed (even though that is true of nobody) have quite a different understanding of the natural man because he did not loom so large in their life or even at all make an appearance in their consciousness... like you have said you barely think of him, even though the Bible says an awful lot about him and most of it is pretty awful at that. He is very much spoken of and contrasted sharply against the spiritual man.
Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
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There is another side to the little ones and that is they believe all things.
A toddler can simply believe in God with no questions asked and a natural, pure belief.
Toddlers are not corrupt as we older folk are.
That is why Jesus rebuked the disciples regarding the little ones that gathered to Him.
A toddler can simply believe in God with no questions asked and a natural, pure belief.
Toddlers are not corrupt as we older folk are.
That is why Jesus rebuked the disciples regarding the little ones that gathered to Him.
Really? Chapter and verse on that theory? Reprobation means the soil is corrupt in one way or another. In the case of the "thorny soil", it was corrupt with thorns that eventually became choked by weeds. None of the first three soils were any good. And each type bore their own distinct characteristics.
That is what, "conformed to the image of His Son", means in Romans 8:29.
Romans 8:29 does not say "saved" but "conformed".
'Conformed to the image of the Son' means to be Christ like in Romans 8:29.
God has predestined you to be Holy and To Love Others, and that is the image of the Son.
Romans 8:29 does not say "saved" but "conformed".
'Conformed to the image of the Son' means to be Christ like in Romans 8:29.
God has predestined you to be Holy and To Love Others, and that is the image of the Son.
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“All hear the same message. Only some respond unto salvation. “
Yeah In other words
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
“The real question in my mind: are some able to respond in this way and others not? “
able is definately not the right term. In my opinion
My view is he has made mankind able to hear and understand words from the start and belief is part of the equation of man as is choice between good and evil since they partook of it in transgression
the principle of belief is how they were deceived and led astray it’s a part of mankind’s operation and design believing God saves believing Satan destroys I believe all
Men can believe but some love darkness rather than light
…again it’s just my own thought
Yeah In other words
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
“The real question in my mind: are some able to respond in this way and others not? “
able is definately not the right term. In my opinion
My view is he has made mankind able to hear and understand words from the start and belief is part of the equation of man as is choice between good and evil since they partook of it in transgression
the principle of belief is how they were deceived and led astray it’s a part of mankind’s operation and design believing God saves believing Satan destroys I believe all
Men can believe but some love darkness rather than light
…again it’s just my own thought
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It's not my fault you don't believe in the Trinity. 
What's really sad is that you CANNOT believe the clear teaching of Rom 8:28-30. You must PERVERT the passage to make it say what you stated earlier. You must read your own personal, heretical, false presupposition into it to come up with the idea that the PEOPLE God "foreknew" are those who would come to believe in him. In other words God knowing people in eternity past ([fore]knowing people is all about prescience, right? Then explain this passage to me if you can:Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
The text clearly teaches that Jesus never ever knew them -- even in eternity. So...what happened to Jesus' omniscience -- his prescience?
But can anyone be saved who is not conformed? Also, you conveniently over look the fact that whom God foreknew He also justified and glorified! Sounds like salvation to me! You dishonestly limit "predestination" to being conformed, but v.28 doesn't do that. It continues to talk about what else God predestined!
You free willers need to find some honest bones...
You free willers need to find some honest bones...
Matthew 13:5
Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and they sprang up immediately,
because they had no depth of soil.
"and they sprang up immediately"
No germination is possible amongst the reprobate.
Calvin is wrong and he must repeat the year.
Any growth is impossible.
Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and they sprang up immediately,
because they had no depth of soil.
"and they sprang up immediately"
No germination is possible amongst the reprobate.
Calvin is wrong and he must repeat the year.
Any growth is impossible.
Really, Einstein, how did you reach such a stupendous conclusion? What's really sad is that you CANNOT believe the clear teaching of Rom 8:28-30. You must PERVERT the passage to make it say what you stated earlier. You must read your own personal, heretical, false presupposition into it to come up with the idea that the PEOPLE God "foreknew" are those who would come to believe in him. In other words God knowing people in eternity past ([fore]knowing people is all about prescience, right? Then explain this passage to me if you can:
Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
The text clearly teaches that Jesus never ever knew them -- even in eternity. So...what happened to Jesus' omniscience -- his prescience?
What's really sad is that you CANNOT believe the clear teaching of Rom 8:28-30. You must PERVERT the passage to make it say what you stated earlier. You must read your own personal, heretical, false presupposition into it to come up with the idea that the PEOPLE God "foreknew" are those who would come to believe in him. In other words God knowing people in eternity past ([fore]knowing people is all about prescience, right? Then explain this passage to me if you can:Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
The text clearly teaches that Jesus never ever knew them -- even in eternity. So...what happened to Jesus' omniscience -- his prescience?
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Hearing clearly must encompass comprehension. But to the natural man, the gospel message is foolishness.
We are back to what Scripture actually says... Jesus came to give sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf.
God circumcises the stony heart and gives the natural man a heart that may love Him. Beware those who twist
this truth and say that means man is then forced and everything handed to him as if on a silver platter.
John 10:27-28
We are back to what Scripture actually says... Jesus came to give sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf.
God circumcises the stony heart and gives the natural man a heart that may love Him. Beware those who twist
this truth and say that means man is then forced and everything handed to him as if on a silver platter.
John 10:27-28
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I told you someone previously that the word "foreknew" is bound by the context.
Paul is not directly talking to the Gentiles here rather, Paul is talking to the Jews in Rome.
Foreknew means those that were formerly known by God, the Jews.
Chat GPT.
This is a fascinating theological question, and the interpretation of Romans in the context of Calvinism (particularly its doctrines of predestination and election) requires careful attention to both the broader context of Paul's argument in the letter and the specific text of Romans 8:29-30. Let’s explore this by considering both possibilities.
Romans 8:29-30 and Calvinism
Romans 8:29-30 reads:
Contextual Considerations in Romans
However, the broader context of Romans introduces nuances that complicate a purely Calvinistic interpretation:
Even Chat GPT can detect that the context can alter the meaning of one or more verses.
That indeed Paul may have been referring to Israel in Romans 8:29.
If Romans 8:29 concerns Israel and not the Gentiles then you are in deep trouble Rufus.
You had better hope that you have not been twisting the scripture.
If there is even a whiff of Paul directly conversing with the Jews in Romans. Then you must take
a step back and reconsider what Calvin may have missed.
Paul is not directly talking to the Gentiles here rather, Paul is talking to the Jews in Rome.
Foreknew means those that were formerly known by God, the Jews.
Chat GPT.
This is a fascinating theological question, and the interpretation of Romans in the context of Calvinism (particularly its doctrines of predestination and election) requires careful attention to both the broader context of Paul's argument in the letter and the specific text of Romans 8:29-30. Let’s explore this by considering both possibilities.
Romans 8:29-30 and Calvinism
Romans 8:29-30 reads:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Calvinists often use this "golden chain of salvation" to support the doctrine of unconditional election—God predestines certain individuals to salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any foreseen faith or merit in them. The progression from foreknowledge to predestination, calling, justification, and glorification is seen as a seamless work of God's grace.Contextual Considerations in Romans
However, the broader context of Romans introduces nuances that complicate a purely Calvinistic interpretation:
- Paul's Focus on Israel and the Gentiles:
- The immediate and extended context of Romans (chapters 9-11, especially) centers on God’s plan for Israel and the inclusion of the Gentiles. Paul explains how the Jews, despite being God's chosen people, failed to achieve righteousness through the law, while the Gentiles obtained righteousness through faith.
- In this context, “foreknowledge” (Greek proginōskō) may not imply an individual predestining of believers but rather God’s covenantal foreknowledge of a group (e.g., Israel) or a plan for humanity.
Even Chat GPT can detect that the context can alter the meaning of one or more verses.
That indeed Paul may have been referring to Israel in Romans 8:29.
If Romans 8:29 concerns Israel and not the Gentiles then you are in deep trouble Rufus.
You had better hope that you have not been twisting the scripture.
If there is even a whiff of Paul directly conversing with the Jews in Romans. Then you must take
a step back and reconsider what Calvin may have missed.
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