Understanding God’s election

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Rufus

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Let's say you were born July 10th, 1989...

You were predestined by God to be born on that day.

God predestined men to be born during the Church age.
He did not predestine Moses, nor Isaiah, to be born during the Church age.

Therefore, Moses and Isaiah are not to be the Bride of Christ.
They will be OT saints resurrected for the new earth.

In contrast to the OT believers...
God predestined for those who He chose for His Bride to be born during the Church age.
God did not choose David to be a part of His Bride!

In that way, God both chose and predestined us In Christ!
For Ephesians 1:4 says that we were chosen IN HIM before the foundations of the world!

Why Chosen IN Him?
To be what?
............................................. His Bride!


For he chose us IN HIM before the creation of the world
to be holy and blameless in his sight."



Ephesians 1:4​

Come on! Get it!
God predestined ALL saints of ALL ages to be saved. What in the world do you think Rom 9 is teaching!? God has his "children of promise" in both the Old and New Covenant dispensations. And, yes, Issac and Jacob were both "in Christ" because they, being on the other side of the Cross, looked forward to the coming of their Messiah.
 

Rufus

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Furthermore, Scripture explicitly states that the natural man is incapable of obeying God.
But to suggest that God acts unilaterally is anathema to their false doctrine. They think
that to even hint at such a thing makes God an unjust tyrant who kidnaps people
against their will. Hmmm, you know what? If God had to kidnap me against my will
so that I could come to believe in the gospel and His plan for my salvation and learn
to love Him then I am all for it, but I do not believe that is what happened even
though that is what others try to make anyone who will listen to them believe.
Yeah, no. When God circumcised my heart and opened my eyes and unstopped my ears
I could hear believe and obey that which I was incapable of hearing and believing and
obeying beforehand, I was finally able to choose rightly in accordance with God's will.
Scripture does actually teach this, but you won't hear it from free willers who promote
falsehoods in place of what Scripture explicitly says. @JohnDB and anyone with ears to hear.
AMEN, sister, preach it, girl! I'm with you! Whatever it takes for God to save me from my self-deceived, self-destructive condition when renders me helpless. But in the world of the Arminian "free willers", it would be better for God to leave such people alone rather than rescue the powerless from themselves. The free willers, even though controlled by the power of sin, think their will is powerful enough to overcome sin.
 

GWH

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Oct 19, 2024
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I'm not so sure you understood what Jesus said on the subject. He gives eternal life and no one can pluck them put of His or the Father's hand. Paul never says anything that contradicts this.
I recognize that there are verses that seem to suggest otherwise, but if the truly did say otherwise, scripture becomes untrustworthy.
Yes Paul does, and I will post those verses again below. If you could only see that harmonizing all Scripture the way I have shared is better than ignoring those below (as OSAS Baptists are led to do), because it affirms/harmonizes both God's all-lovingness and omnipotence.

Passages that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:

Scriptures that seem to support predestination as loss of free will:

1. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” refers to powers other than one’s own will.

2. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”.

3. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).

4. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

5. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

6. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Tell me how does God decide who to regenerate? Why did you get picked and not Mr. Inability down the way?

People cannot "hear" in you view unless they are regenerated so what difference does it make if the hearer neglects.

What I see you trying to straddle the lanes a little bit, maybe you are recognizing how tragic and UN-biblical this doctrine of selection is?
Well.... one thing we can know for certain is that the "how" doesn't entail man's conduct per Rom 9. The other thing we can know for certain is that it doesn't entail man's desires or his walk before God -- also in Rom 9. So...maybe you should just content yourself with the fact that the secret things of God belong to Him alone...and that all that God does CAN only be good, righteous, holy and just since much is revealed about his holy character. Maybe you should just content yourself that God works out all things according to his GOOD purpose (which means his choices are not arbitrary).

Why can't you implicitly trust in God's good, holy character instead of questioning it?
 

Cameron143

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Yes Paul does, and I will post those verses again below. If you could only see that harmonizing all Scripture the way I have shared is better than ignoring those below (as OSAS Baptists are led to do), because it affirms/harmonizes both God's all-lovingness and omnipotence.

Passages that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:

Scriptures that seem to support predestination as loss of free will:

1. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” refers to powers other than one’s own will.

2. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”.

3. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).

4. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

5. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

6. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
I would take the time to respond if I thought it would make a difference, but I do not believe this to be the case.
Grace and peace.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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Calvinites for the most part. They repeat his errors endlessly.
Yes, there are more players involved beforehand and further down the line.....but you get the idea.
Oh, I get the idea.

I am aware that Calvin did not arrive at his interpretation from the New Testament alone.

Calvin was following a line of characters in Christian history that extend back, even into the early
first few centuries of Christianity.

They do not comprehend letters such as Romans correctly.

I have found this to be disturbing and troubling.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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Correct. I explained the rationale behind Jesus using the imagery of a little child to gain entrance into the kingdom. Small children naturally and instinctively trust their parents for their needs; for they obviously sense their own helplessness and vulnerabilities to the big bad world around them. When we see a crying child running towards his parent, we should interpret his cries as calling out to be rescued.

But how many adults do these things with respect to God?
Not enough adults call on Jesus every day.
 

Cranberry

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Dec 7, 2024
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Furthermore, Scripture explicitly states that the natural man is incapable of obeying God.
But to suggest that God acts unilaterally is anathema to their false doctrine. They think
that to even hint at such a thing makes God an unjust tyrant who kidnaps people
against their will. Hmmm, you know what? If God had to kidnap me against my will
so that I could come to believe in the gospel and His plan for my salvation and learn
to love Him then I am all for it, but I do not believe that is what happened even
though that is what others try to make anyone who will listen to them believe.
Yeah, no. When God circumcised my heart and opened my eyes and unstopped my ears
I could hear believe and obey that which I was incapable of hearing and believing and
obeying beforehand, I was finally able to choose rightly in accordance with God's will.
Scripture does actually teach this, but you won't hear it from free willers who promote
falsehoods in place of what Scripture explicitly says. @JohnDB and anyone with ears to hear.
If you don't mind the observation, i'm reading contradiction there.

First you say scripture states natural man is incapable of obeying God.
Then you criticize the idea of God unilaterally acting on behalf of what Scripture also calls his Elect or Chosen so to save them.

If natural man is indeed incapable in that natural state how other than by God's choice of them ,his grace,does that natural condition change?
Because we are told how that happens in the rest of Paul's writings.

And your unilateral comment appears to contradict that. Even criticize it.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Raeding this thread over time a question made me curious of others thoughts here.

Do you find it _____________fill in that blank, that we all call ourselves Jesus Christ Christians. And yet we follow or are members of groups that are named after other men? Those who define Christ and his teachings their way? Which then divides us.
I find that people are eager to assume I follow someone I don't know (that is, Calvin) and wildly falsely accuse me of all
manner of things simply because they fail to understand the Biblical truths I espouse which they deny and oppose.
 

GWH

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Oct 19, 2024
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I would take the time to respond if I thought it would make a difference, but I do not believe this to be the case.
Grace and peace.
I understand you would bother to incorporate those verses I cited into your understanding of GW if you thought it might change your made-up mind, but it won't.

Well, they changed my mind, because I could see that harmonizing all Scripture in a way that affirms/harmonizes both God's all-lovingness and omnipotence is better/truer than ignoring them as my Baptist brethren were doing.

Everyone lives by fallible faith/belief/opinion and sufficient knowledge of evidence rather than by absolute certainty or proof or coercion (2CR 5:7), but a logical train of thought leads an unbiased truthseeker to have a propensity to believe in an all-loving God, who is not tricky and does not hide the way to heaven (HB 11:6, ACTS 13:10).

The method employed in this hermeneutic is additive or eclectic as taught by Paul (in 1THS 5:21), exemplified by Jesus (in MT 4:6-7) and illustrated by the transparent overlays of bodily systems found in some books on anatomy. I want to include all true assertions in the picture of reality without making a “Procrustean Body” by cutting off or ignoring parts that do not seem to fit, because the correct understanding must be self-consistent or else God would be tricky. The whole truth combines/harmonizes parts without sawing!
 

Magenta

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Then you criticize the idea of God unilaterally acting on behalf of what Scripture also calls his Elect or Chosen so to save them.
Where did I do that? That is what opponents to what Scripture teaches do. I do not oppose God's sovereignty.

If natural man is indeed incapable in that natural state how other than by God's choice of them ,his grace,does that natural condition change?
Because we are told how that happens in the rest of Paul's writings.

And your unilateral comment appears to contradict that. Even criticize it.
Like many others you fail to understand. Somehow heart circumcision completely escapes you.

When a person's heart is circumcised, are they, in your view, still a natural man?

Or does God replacing our heart as He has promised to do allow us to make the choice He desires?
 

Cranberry

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Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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I quoted your post here, https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-god’s-election.216907/page-185#post-5420694

There is no indication you are referencing others ideas. Those comments read as singular and your personal thoughts.
Your comprehension is quite lacking since I clearly reference "they" and "their false doctrine" and my post is in addition to my previous post which is indicated by starting out with "furthermore" and being addressed to John as was my previous post as well as to all with ears to hear.

So perhaps if you read more carefully and do not jump to false conclusions based on erroneous assumptions?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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The question is posed with some faint hope they may recognize the flaws in the doctrine, but I have noticed there are always the same stereotypical responses.
mostly seeds take some time to take root but the life is in the right seed

“And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

and should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; ( after the seed was scattered )

first the blade,

then the ear,

after that the full corn in the ear.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:26-28‬ ‭

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Like Adam and Eve.

then other times it’s this when people hear the gospel

“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe,

and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭

then also this happens for others who hear the gospel

“And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

and finally it can be like this when we hear the gospel

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

believing is something we have to be diligent about because there’s so much that seeks to steal our faith away from the gospel.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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and should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Certainly not by the will, effort, or desire of the man... as Scripture very plainly teaches, though many deny it.


1 Corinthians 3:6-7 I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God Who makes things grow.
:)
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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I understand you would bother to incorporate those verses I cited into your understanding of GW if you thought it might change your made-up mind, but it won't.

Well, they changed my mind, because I could see that harmonizing all Scripture in a way that affirms/harmonizes both God's all-lovingness and omnipotence is better/truer than ignoring them as my Baptist brethren were doing.

Everyone lives by fallible faith/belief/opinion and sufficient knowledge of evidence rather than by absolute certainty or proof or coercion (2CR 5:7), but a logical train of thought leads an unbiased truthseeker to have a propensity to believe in an all-loving God, who is not tricky and does not hide the way to heaven (HB 11:6, ACTS 13:10).

The method employed in this hermeneutic is additive or eclectic as taught by Paul (in 1THS 5:21), exemplified by Jesus (in MT 4:6-7) and illustrated by the transparent overlays of bodily systems found in some books on anatomy. I want to include all true assertions in the picture of reality without making a “Procrustean Body” by cutting off or ignoring parts that do not seem to fit, because the correct understanding must be self-consistent or else God would be tricky. The whole truth combines/harmonizes parts without sawing!
You're wrong. Your very first point you butcher. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. To you, nothing means nothing but with an exception. So if you define nothing with an exception, to me that means something. So if you are going to reinvent definitions and add to scripture what isn't stated, you will proceed to poor doctrine. Since you see the error to be my unwillingness to consider what the scripture states and not your poor interpretation of scripture, what good will come of it?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Certainly not by the will effort or desire of the man... as Scripture very plainly teaches.


1 Corinthians 3:6-7 I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God Who makes things grow.
:)
yep that’s basically what it is teaching the guy who spread the seed , Gods word , doesn’t make it grow or even know how that’s not his job. But the man in the parable , did need to scatter the seed so the soil could accept or reject it

same seed was scattered everywhere easnt the seed or the sewers fault it wasn’t that he treated some soil special and prepared it but not the rest
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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yep that’s basically what it is teaching the guy who spread the seed , Gods word , doesn’t make it grow or even know how that’s not his job. But the man in the parable , did need to scatter the seed so the soil could accept or reject it

same seed was scattered everywhere easnt the seed or the sewers fault it wasn’t that he treated some soil special and prepared it but not the rest
I am not sure what you are saying. Men spread the Seed of God's Word but it is up to God when and where it grows?
 

Inquisitor

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I did! And I stand by it. Jesus clearly taught that no human being is inherently good, and that would include children.

What I was challenging was the non-reformed idea that God saves all children anyway. I wanted to know on what judicial grounds does he do this? Genez proffered the idea that salvation for the kiddies is all based on God's prescience and has nothing to do with jurisprudence, clearly implying that God has two different systems of salvation.
What the real problem we have is that a perfect God can choose between two orphan toddlers.

One orphan toddler He rescues from the lake of fire and the other orphan toddler He ignores.

Yet Rufus, God tells us that a pure religion in James is caring for all orphans.

We don't choose between orphans.

Even the orphans that belong to our enemies, that is, the orphans in enemy countries.

This is a tough conversation and not one I enjoy.

There is a disconnect between how God behaves in Calvinism and what God is telling us to do.

Does God love others, that is, the reprobate?

Why would God tell us to love others when He does not?