Understanding God’s election

[Inquisitor]

Well...give me a verse that teaches the UNIVERSAL drawing of the Father. One would think that if the Father is drawing each and every person in the world to his Son that the Son would not have said:

Matt 11:27
27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
NIV

Or one would reasonably and logically think that if the Father is drawing all mankind to Jesus in the distributive sense that Jesus would have prayed for each and every person in the world in his High Priestly prayer in John 17. But instead we find this text:

John 17:-9
9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

No universal prayer in this passage!

Or one would think that if the Father is universally drawing all men to his Son, that the Father would do that by universally revealing gospel truth to each and every person in the world; yet, once again we find Jesus saying:

Luke 8:10
And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'
ESV

IOW, "the secrets of the kingdom" were revealed only to God's elect. From everyone else, they were hidden!

Luke 10:21
21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
NIV

So...explain to me again how God is drawing the "wise and learned" of this world from whom He has hidden his truth -- making them incapable of understanding that which has been hidden from them. Therefore, Jn 12:32 (to which you originally alluded) cannot logically be interpreted in the distributive sense. The "all men" must understood in the limited sense, i.e. Christ will draw all the Father's elect -- Christ will draw all those to whom He has sovereignly revealed his Father. Christ will draw all those for whom he prayed in his High Priestly prayer.

And fret not about me. I'm on the rock solid ground of scripture. God is both FREE to save and FREE to not save, since no sinner is worthy of his grace, mercy, compassion or love. God is indebted to no one! In either case, His choice is righteous and just!

Was Jesus revealed to the Jews only?

Was Jesus sent to the Jews exclusively?

The answer is yes, because that was God's choice, God's sovereign will.

Were the Gentiles grafted in at a later time?

Were the Jews grafted out?

That's God's sovereign will at work again.

Now we are talking precisely about the letter to the Romans are we not.

Romans 11:1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant
of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

That was the Jews He foreknew.

Romans 11:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.

Yet again the Jews He foreknew.

Don't get distracted from the embedded context, Jews and Gentiles and God's choice.

God knew Israel (whom He foreknew) and chose to graft them out because of their unbelief.

If you attempt to interpret Romans in some other way, then you are dead wrong.

 

[Rufus]

If we can just get our hands on Adam and give him what he deserves.

I do think that we can reverse everything written in the scripture.

Mwhaaaaaaaaaaa.

He got what he deserved from the very beginning when God relegated Adam to become the Serpent's seed.

 

[Blain]

No, I have not.
Is it fictional?

the seed war basically is how there is a war going on to do with the seed from adam to satan trying to corrupt mankind with inpure seeds like how the nephilim were before the flood you know massive in size unbelievable strength the likes of Goliath

Well the seed war supposively still continues to this day satan wanting to corrupt mankind with hybrids. there have been accounts of star children born with massive heads and black eyes accounts of experiments to make super soldiers all kinds of things but basically satan trying to corrupt mankind with sinful seeds making what God created into a warped version

 

[Rufus]

Was Jesus revealed to the Jews only?

Was Jesus sent to the Jews exclusively?

The answer is yes, because that was God's choice, God's sovereign will.

Were the Gentiles grafted in at a later time?

Were the Jews grafted out?

That's God's sovereign will at work again.

Now we are talking precisely about the letter to the Romans are we not.

Romans 11:1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant
of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

That was the Jews He foreknew.

Romans 11:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.

Yet again the Jews He foreknew.

Don't get distracted from the embedded context, Jews and Gentiles and God's choice.

God knew Israel (whom He foreknew) and chose to graft them out because of their unbelief.

If you attempt to interpret Romans in some other way, then you are dead wrong.

God's foreknowledge is not contingent on man's desires or on anything man does. God predestined those whom He had intimate, personal, loving, familial knowledge of . You keep changing "whom" into an impersonal pronoun "what". Nice job at eisegesis.

 

[Inquisitor]

Wrong. See Rom 1:7 which you keep ignoring. And what part of 1:13 can't you understand? Evidently, all of it since you ignore both of these passages, as well as the text in Rom 11 wherein Paul also addresses Gentile believers. In fact, Paul's indictment against all humanity includes Jews and Gentiles, since both are under sin!

Are you accusing me of ignoring what is clearly written in Romans 11?

Romans 11:1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained?

Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they?

Romans 11:12
Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles,
how much more will their fulfillment be!

Then you have the gall to provide a partial quotation from Romans to the Inquisitor.
And accuse the Inquisitor of not understanding?

Here is your pathetic, partial quotation a cheery picked, partial verse.

Romans 11:13
But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles.

Well, for your sake I will quote the entire verse from romans 11:13-14, and we will see if your correct.

Romans 11:13-14
But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify
my ministry if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them.

Paul just gave the game away and yes Paul has been talking to the Jews. And about the Jews since
Chapter two. Paul is apologizing to the Gentiles because the Jews are my own people.

Tell me how you can ignore the two groups (Jews and Gentiles) and God's sovereign election!

What is going on in this thread?

 

[Inquisitor]

God's foreknowledge is not contingent on man's desires or on anything man does. God predestined those whom He had intimate, personal, loving, familial knowledge of . You keep changing "whom" into an impersonal pronoun "what". Nice job at eisegesis.

God formerly knew the nation of Israel and the Gentiles were not covenant members.

The Gentile dogs fed themselves from the crumbs that fell from the Master's table.

Jesus was not sent to any Gentile nation but to Israel only.

There is an Old Testament Rufus.

 

[Genez]

Wrong. See Rom 1:7 which you keep ignoring. And what part of 1:13 can't you understand? Evidently, all of it since you ignore both of these passages, as well as the text in Rom 11 wherein Paul also addresses Gentile believers. In fact, Paul's indictment against all humanity includes Jews and Gentiles, since both are under sin!

And, so do you, ignore them.

You did not copy and paste either one of them.
How are we supposed to know what you are talking about?

Lazy lazy lazy.....

Romans 1:7

To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:13

I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that I planned many times to come to you
(but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you,
just as I have had among the other Gentiles.


As far as Romans 11?
Without posting anything specific?
Who can know what it is, you think you are seeing?

Sorry.. You keep letting your depravity get the best of you!


........

 

[Rufus]

Yeah I have a few health issues I shouldn’t probably joke about it, but it’s better then grumping I feel like

I can empathize with you, as I, too, have multiple health issues. I frequently pray to God that he would give me an abundance of grace so that I can continue until my dying breath to glorify his Name with my witness for the few short days I have left of my life. (If my entire lifespan is but a vapor, that is here one moment and gone the next, then how little time do I or anyone else my age have left?)

I will pray for your health issues.

 

[cv5]

His body was transformed and had become a distortion of what the Lord made him to be.

Something like that.
It is clear that Adam was observing the Woman degrading right before his very eyes after she ate from the tree of death.

The shock horror and dismay at this spectacle was the driving factor that drove Adam to make the agonizing decision to depart
from the Living God and join the Woman in her sin. Because he loved her and wanted desperately to save her somehow.

Adam sweat great drops of blood in the garden agonizing over his deliberate (NOT DECEIVED per 1 Tim 2:14) FREE WILL choice to be SEPARATED (aka ***die***) from his God in a calculated gambit to SAVE his bride the Woman, taking responsibility for her sin.

Adam "committed suicide" to save his bride ("The woman whom thou gavest to be with me ").
Christ "committed suicide" to save His Bride the Church, taking responsibility for her sins.

 

[Rufus]

God formerly knew the nation of Israel and the Gentiles were not covenant members.

The Gentile dogs fed themselves from the crumbs that fell from the Master's table.

Jesus was not sent to any Gentile nation but to Israel only.

There is an Old Testament Rufus.

Then you should pay much closer attention to all that the OT says about the Abrahamic Covenant promises and everything else that pertains to God bringing the Gentile nations to himself. The inclusion of the Gentiles into the chosen, covenant people of God looms large throughout the OT.

 

[GWH]

Well...give me a verse that teaches the UNIVERSAL drawing of the Father. One would think that if the Father is drawing each and every person in the world to his Son that the Son would not have said:

Matt 11:27
27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
NIV

Or one would reasonably and logically think that if the Father is drawing all mankind to Jesus in the distributive sense that Jesus would have prayed for each and every person in the world in his High Priestly prayer in John 17. But instead we find this text:

John 17:-9
9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

No universal prayer in this passage!

Or one would think that if the Father is universally drawing all men to his Son, that the Father would do that by universally revealing gospel truth to each and every person in the world; yet, once again we find Jesus saying:

Luke 8:10
And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'
ESV

IOW, "the secrets of the kingdom" were revealed only to God's elect. From everyone else, they were hidden!

Luke 10:21
21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
NIV

So...explain to me again how God is drawing the "wise and learned" of this world from whom He has hidden his truth -- making them incapable of understanding that which has been hidden from them. Therefore, Jn 12:32 (to which you originally alluded) cannot logically be interpreted in the distributive sense. The "all men" must understood in the limited sense, i.e. Christ will draw all the Father's elect -- Christ will draw all those to whom He has sovereignly revealed his Father. Christ will draw all those for whom he prayed in his High Priestly prayer.

And fret not about me. I'm on the rock solid ground of scripture. God is both FREE to save and FREE to not save, since no sinner is worthy of his grace, mercy, compassion or love. God is indebted to no one! In either case, His choice is righteous and just!

No, you are on the sinking sand of proof-texting a problematic interpretation and being unwilling to connect the dots between Scripture teaching God's universal love and His wanting all people to be saved, so YOU need to fret about your limiting God to having a demonic nature!

However, if you really do want me to share again how to connect those dots, I will be glad to cite the Scriptures again next post that need to be plugged into your hermeneutic rather than sawed off. Remember, I used to be a OSAS Baptist who had to change my view also after learning more of GW.

 

[Genez]

the seed war basically is how there is a war going on to do with the seed from adam to satan trying to corrupt mankind with inpure seeds like how the nephilim were before the flood you know massive in size unbelievable strength the likes of Goliath

Well the seed war supposively still continues to this day satan wanting to corrupt mankind with hybrids. there have been accounts of star children born with massive heads and black eyes accounts of experiments to make super soldiers all kinds of things but basically satan trying to corrupt mankind with sinful seeds making what God created into a warped version

Wanting to corrupt mankind with hybrids?
Are you saying Satan is a Prius salesman?

Demons that are on the earth are now all sans a physical body.
They can not introduce any physical seeds into humanity anymore.

 

[cv5]

God formerly knew the nation of Israel and the Gentiles were not covenant members.

The Gentile dogs fed themselves from the crumbs that fell from the Master's table.

Jesus was not sent to any Gentile nation but to Israel only.

There is an Old Testament Rufus.

Good job buddy.

It is vast ignorance of the OT that is the seminal cause for this heretical Calvinite business.
Frankly, I don't think they care to know or repent to align their doctrine to what the Bible says.

 

[cv5]

And, so do you, ignore them.

You did not copy and paste either one of them.
How are we supposed to know what you are talking about?

Lazy lazy lazy.....

Romans 1:7

To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:13

I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that I planned many times to come to you
(but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you,
just as I have had among the other Gentiles.


As far as Romans 11?
Without posting anything specific?
Who can know what it is, you think you are seeing?

Sorry.. You keep letting your depravity get the best of you!


........

Romans 1:13
As far as Romans 11?

Another couple of swings a misses.

 

[Genez]

Something like that.
It is clear that Adam was observing the Woman degrading right before his very eyes after she ate from the tree of death.

She instantly died, spiritually...
Nothing detectable to the human eye looking at her human body.

When someone is born again, they still maintain the same appearance physically.

 

[Cranberry]

It does not say that inheriting the sin of our father is like Adam's sin.
You are not going to jail because your grandfather robbed a bank.
That would be a sin of your fathers...
But, you are a sinner, because all men are sinners by the inherited fallen nature originating with Adam's fall.

When Adam sinned?
His body was transformed and had become a distortion of what the Lord made him to be.
That same distortion permeated all of Adam's DNA.
That DNA produced sperm that passed down the attributes of the defect to all born from then on.
The sin nature in fallen flesh keeps getting passed down through the procreation process of all humans.

......

I teresting theory.
One that I think paints a unique picture of God.

 

[Blain]

Wanting to corrupt mankind with hybrids?
Are you saying Satan is a Prius salesman?

Demons that are on the earth are now all sans a physical body.
They can not introduce any physical seeds into humanity anymore.

well seeds in the inserting sense not so much physical but it isn't of any importance I just learned about it recently and was wondering if you had any insights on it

 

[Genez]

Good job buddy.

It is vast ignorance of the OT that is the seminal cause for this heretical Calvinite business.
Frankly, I don't think they care to know or repent to align their doctrine to what the Bible says.

It makes them feel good in their flesh to have something to bully believers with.

They confuse physical death and spiritual death.
We were all spiritually dead before regeneration.
Just as a car is dead without the ignition switch wires being connected.

 

[Rufus]

Something like that.
It is clear that Adam was observing the Woman degrading right before his very eyes after she ate from the tree of death.

The shock horror and dismay at this spectacle was the driving factor that drove Adam to make the agonizing decision to depart
from the Living God and join the Woman in her sin. Because he loved her and wanted desperately to save her somehow.

Adam sweat great drops of blood in the garden agonizing over his deliberate (NOT DECEIVED per 1 Tim 2:14) FREE WILL choice to be SEPARATED (aka ***die***) from his God in a calculated gambit to SAVE his bride the Woman, taking responsibility for her sin.

Adam "committed suicide" to save his bride ("The woman whom thou gavest to be with me ").
Christ "committed suicide" to save His Bride the Church, taking responsibility for her sins.

Too bad your superhero Adam didn't love God more than his woman, proving that he was not worthy of Him -- a truth that Jesus taught! Instead, Adam compounded his sin by not only blaming the woman he "loved so much" and "wanted desperately to save" but by also accusing God that he gave him defective goods by giving him Eve!

You certainly do have some pretty strange concepts of what love is....not to mention sin. You actually justify Adam's sin by romanticizing it!

 

[HeIsHere]

What is going on in this thread?

As someone once stated, context, is the enemy of Calvinism.