Understanding God’s election

[Pilgrimshope]

Well I did not use those words so that's why I was questioning that part of it... certainly man is corrupt... you have more than once given the impression that it took a long time for man to get that way whereas I am saying man was corrupted as soon as Adam ate the forbidden fruit... all of creation was affected. But Jesus had already been purposed... so God knew this was going to happen because Jesus was not plan B.

Well I did not use those words so that's why I was questioning that part of it….. yes that’s true you never used the word but from what the comment said it seemed that was what you had “ said “ but it’s not Important at this point seems like a miscommunication sister

“ you have more than once given the impression that it took a long time for man to get that way whereas I am saying man was corrupted as soon as Adam ate the forbidden fruit.”

yes exactly that’s where the point of disagreement is nowhere else at the moment whether man was capable of choosing good after Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Or if they became incapable and completely corrupt instantly .

i agree that’s where corruption happened I don’t agree that man became a slave to sin at that point but we’re introduced to good and evil two contrary forces now pulling at them because they do sinned the knowledge not meant for them

we even agree how mankind became corrupted and when , I’m saying that isn’t when they became inherantly wicked and incapable of choosing good , but the corruption was now tbey did have to choose between those to forces and influences

What I was going to show you in scriptire , was why I believe that part that zgod makes a covenant with man and in the beginning some follow him and have faith believing but over time man turns away and then God destroys them and begins again with a good and righteous man . When most all the others are in the condition you suggest correctly tbat man had become when Jesus came to redeem us from tbat state

Even at the end of our covenant that corruption and inner conflict always ends with man becoming wicked at heart but it happened over time as they serve sin more and more not just for no reason or because it’s gods will or design but because of that corruption that puts man in a position of being influenced by good and evil inherantly facing temptation that seeks to destroy us we have all failed bit beforehand not everyone did until we became that way in the end of our covenant

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In the end of adams covenent after ten generations

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Before this men had been calling upon the lords name being the line of Seth who served God men like Enoch who walked with God by faith and never died Hebrews chapter 11. Or Noah who was warned by God of the flood and acted in faith building the ark saving himself and his household by obeying the lord because he believed his word also Hebrews 11

“These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then so this happened with Israel’s covenant at the first the generetion who entered the promised land crossing over Jordan tbat generation obeyed and served God but afterwards they began becoming wicked , later they would repent and call on God he would restore them for a feneretion they would repent and obey him a good king would be chosen by God and he would destroy all thier idols and they would for a generation or two obey him and keep the cofenwnt but then again and again they disobeyed after some time

God looks down after all this and sees that there’s no one like Noah anymore , no one like job , or Enoch , Elijah the tishbite one of my personal favorites, or Daniel even he sees there’s no one who’s heart is seeking God anymore and declares the plan tbats always been there


A son will be born who is immanuel God with us . And whoever puts thier faith in him shall be saved. Because now all
Men have become wicked again like in genesis six

then he made people right again through the gospel and near the end people will become corrupt again like it says there about the last days

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I also appreciate seeing a brother and sister in Christ able to be mature and speak with the right spirit I am grateful for you both

As for that blood pressure I completely understand

Yeah I have a few health issues I shouldn’t probably joke about it, but it’s better then grumping I feel like

 

[cv5]

Now read the text below in that introduction to the letter to the Romans carefully.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Now read the second verse in the second chapter of Romans.

Romans 2:17
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God.

How anyone can ignore the underlying context of Romans 2 to 11, is staggering.

Given we have been reading the scripture for centuries.

There are two distinct groups in Romans, the Jews and the Gentiles.

Not the chosen and the unchosen.

Good call there friend. A predominant phenomenon everywhere in Romans.

Jews and Gentiles = elder son and younger son
Of Luke 15.

But there is more to the list:
-Cain and Abel
-Esau and Jacob
-Ishmael and Isaac

AND SATAN AND ADAM.

 

[Cranberry]

There is a simple reason we are all born condemned.

Our human father was Adam.

Adam passed down the sin nature that is in our flesh, which he acquired when he fell.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, ​

for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12​

​

Then comes the Gospel....

It's curious that it is said we are that due to Adam. In other scripture we are told we do not inherit the sin of our father. We are all responsible for our own son.

I always wonder if that be the case why we start off condemned by the son of our human father Adam. Or,more rightly so that of Noah and his son's post deluge.

 

[cv5]

Now read the text below in that introduction to the letter to the Romans carefully.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Now read the second verse in the second chapter of Romans.

Romans 2:17
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God.

How anyone can ignore the underlying context of Romans 2 to 11, is staggering.

Given we have been reading the scripture for centuries.

There are two distinct groups in Romans, the Jews and the Gentiles.

Not the chosen and the unchosen.

Here we are again, the same bifurcation in Romans 10:

[Rom 10:1 KJV]
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

[Rom 10:2 KJV]
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

[Rom 10:3 KJV]
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

[Rom 10:6 KJV]
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]

[Rom 10:7 KJV]
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

[Rom 10:8 KJV]
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

[Rom 10:12 KJV]
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

======================================================================

And yes, Romans 10:7-8 devastates the Calvinite position:
And yes, God Himself clearly declares that indeed, men are both capable and responsible to believe.
Which is exactly what the gentile Gibeonites did throughout their generations.

And think about it: who can POSSIBLY disbelieve when there are 10 plagues, a pillar of cloud, a pillar of fire, manna, Red Sea and Jordan parting and a host of other miraculous phenomenon occurring on a daily basis? Only those who CHOOSE to depart from the Living God would ever do so.

[Deu 30:11 KJV]
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.

[Deu 30:12 KJV]
It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

[Deu 30:13 KJV]
Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

[Deu 30:14 KJV]
But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

[Deu 30:15 KJV]
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

[Deu 30:16 KJV]
In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

[Deu 30:19 KJV]
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[Blain]

Yeah I have a few health issues I shouldn’t probably joke about it, but it’s better then grumping I feel like

Same here but better to laugh about than let it bring you down I joke about my eyes all the time

 

[cv5]

The overriding revelation is Jesus and His unconditional love for everyone, and not love for His favorites.

Yes. And astonishingly, the Scriptures make it perfectly clear that Jesus loves SATAN despite his hatred for him.
Satan the primordial "elder son" of Luke 15.

And that Jesus God is weeping and mourning for this loss.

[2Sa 18:33 KJV]
And the king was much moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept: and as he went, thus he said, O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!

 

[Inquisitor]

Not sure you understand what God not being a respecter of persons means. It does not mean that God is not impartial. It can easily be shown that God is partial.

When the Bible says that God is no respecter of persons, it simply means God doesn't choose on the basis of anything having to do with the individual. He makes choices independent of the consideration of anything that is outside of Himself.

Another one claiming God loves me more than He loves you.

God is perfect and not like you or me.

God is love, Cameron, and that is the image that Christ demonstrated at all times.

'God's choice', you say.

The context in the N.T is about Jews and Gentiles and that is the foundation of His choice.

The Old Testament proclaims that Israel was chosen!

The New Testament proclaims that the Gentiles were chosen!

If you want to rocket down some path of God's sovereignty then go ahead.

God's choice you say regarding election?

 

[Genez]

It's curious that it is said we are that due to Adam. In other scripture we are told we do not inherit the sin of our father. We are all responsible for our own son.

I always wonder if that be the case why we start off condemned by the son of our human father Adam. Or,more rightly so that of Noah and his son's post deluge.

It does not say that inheriting the sin of our father is like Adam's sin.
You are not going to jail because your grandfather robbed a bank.
That would be a sin of your fathers...
But, you are a sinner, because all men are sinners by the inherited fallen nature originating with Adam's fall.

When Adam sinned?
His body was transformed and had become a distortion of what the Lord made him to be.
That same distortion permeated all of Adam's DNA.
That DNA produced sperm that passed down the attributes of the defect to all born from then on.
The sin nature in fallen flesh keeps getting passed down through the procreation process of all humans.

......

 

[Blain]

It does not say that inheriting the sin of our father is like Adam's sin.
You are not going to jail because your grandfather robbed a bank.
That would be a sin of your fathers...
But, you are a sinner, because all men are sinners by the inherited fallen nature originating with Adam's fall.

When Adam sinned?
His body was transformed and had become a distortion of what the Lord made him to be.
That same distortion permeated all of Adam's DNA.
That DNA produced sperm that passed down the attributes of the defect to all born from then on.
The sin nature in fallen flesh keeps getting passed down through the procreation process of all humans.

......

very well spoken. Have you heard of the seed war by chance?

 

[cv5]

Not sure you understand what God not being a respecter of persons means. It does not mean that God is not impartial. It can easily be shown that God is partial.

When the Bible says that God is no respecter of persons, it simply means God doesn't choose on the basis of anything having to do with the individual. He makes choices independent of the consideration of anything that is outside of Himself.

This saying clearly refers to the rendering of justice without prejudice.

[Deu 10:17 KJV]
For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

[Deu 16:19 KJV]
Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.

[2Ch 19:7 KJV]
Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do [it]: for [there is] no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

[Col 3:25 KJV]
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

[Jas 2:4 KJV]
Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

[1Pe 1:17 KJV]
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

 

[Inquisitor]

Good call there friend. A predominant phenomenon everywhere in Romans.

Jews and Gentiles = elder son and younger son
Of Luke 15.

But there is more to the list:
-Cain and Abel
-Esau and Jacob
-Ishmael and Isaac

AND SATAN AND ADAM.

Do you think the real problem is a spiritual problem or a reading and comprehension issue?

Romans 7
Or do you not know, brothers and sisters for I am speaking to those who know the Law, that the Law
has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

Paul told you who He was talking to.

Romans is a simple text with a story line explaining why Israel failed, that's all it is.

That's why Romans is a nightmare for Gentiles to read, and they don't understand it.

A Jew would understand Romans.

 

[Rufus]

Has it never occurred to you that those multitudes who did not take the initiative were NOT drawn by the Father which makes Him to be as hateful as Satan? I would not want to show up at the pearly gates having to explain THAT interpretation to Jesus, who said that we should love our enemies to manifest God’s perfection.

Well...give me a verse that teaches the UNIVERSAL drawing of the Father. One would think that if the Father is drawing each and every person in the world to his Son that the Son would not have said:

Matt 11:27
27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
NIV

Or one would reasonably and logically think that if the Father is drawing all mankind to Jesus in the distributive sense that Jesus would have prayed for each and every person in the world in his High Priestly prayer in John 17. But instead we find this text:

John 17:-9
9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

No universal prayer in this passage!

Or one would think that if the Father is universally drawing all men to his Son, that the Father would do that by universally revealing gospel truth to each and every person in the world; yet, once again we find Jesus saying:

Luke 8:10
And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'
ESV

IOW, "the secrets of the kingdom" were revealed only to God's elect. From everyone else, they were hidden!

Luke 10:21
21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
NIV

So...explain to me again how God is drawing the "wise and learned" of this world from whom He has hidden his truth -- making them incapable of understanding that which has been hidden from them. Therefore, Jn 12:32 (to which you originally alluded) cannot logically be interpreted in the distributive sense. The "all men" must understood in the limited sense, i.e. Christ will draw all the Father's elect -- Christ will draw all those to whom He has sovereignly revealed his Father. Christ will draw all those for whom he prayed in his High Priestly prayer.

And fret not about me. I'm on the rock solid ground of scripture. God is both FREE to save and FREE to not save, since no sinner is worthy of his grace, mercy, compassion or love. God is indebted to no one! In either case, His choice is righteous and just!

 

[Inquisitor]

It's curious that it is said we are that due to Adam. In other scripture we are told we do not inherit the sin of our father. We are all responsible for our own son.

I always wonder if that be the case why we start off condemned by the son of our human father Adam. Or,more rightly so that of Noah and his son's post deluge.

If we can just get our hands on Adam and give him what he deserves.

I do think that we can reverse everything written in the scripture.

Mwhaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

[Rufus]

This saying clearly refers to the rendering of justice without prejudice.

[Deu 10:17 KJV]
For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

[Deu 16:19 KJV]
Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.

[2Ch 19:7 KJV]
Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do [it]: for [there is] no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

[Col 3:25 KJV]
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

[Jas 2:4 KJV]
Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

[1Pe 1:17 KJV]
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

See how Eph 1:11 and Rom 9 harmonizes so nicely with the above passages? God works all things after the counsel of his own will -- salvation does not depend on the man who desires or the man who runs but on God's purpose. It's not possible, therefore, that God can be biased or prejudicial.

 

[Cameron143]

Another one claiming God loves me more than He loves you.

God is perfect and not like you or me.

God is love, Cameron, and that is the image that Christ demonstrated at all times.

'God's choice', you say.

The context in the N.T is about Jews and Gentiles and that is the foundation of His choice.

The Old Testament proclaims that Israel was chosen!

The New Testament proclaims that the Gentiles were chosen!

If you want to rocket down some path of God's sovereignty then go ahead.

God's choice you say regarding election?

I always enjoy conversing with someone who takes my words out of context or implies things concerning me or who never actually addresses the point I'm making. I'll try again before throwing in the towel.

First, I never said God loves me more than another. Not part of my argument. But since we're on the subject, I have certainly experienced the manifest love of God more than others. I'm happy to demonstrate how if you so desire.
Second, if you reread my post, my point dealt with what a particular phrase means and doesn't mean. Any disagreement with what I shared?
Third, I didn't bring up the subject of God's sovereignty. While the subject of choice certainly involves sovereignty, you'll find no mention of it in my post. While I find it a most interesting topic, you brought it up, and not me. I do find it interesting also that election deals with choice and that every Christian would assent to the truth that God is sovereign, yet, somehow, sovereignty wouldn't be a play a part in the choices God makes.

 

[Genez]

Well...give me a verse that teaches the UNIVERSAL drawing of the Father. One would think that if the Father is drawing each and every person in the world to his Son that the Son would not have said:

Matt 11:27
27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
NIV

Or one would reasonably and logically think that if the Father is drawing all mankind to Jesus in the distributive sense that Jesus would have prayed for each and every person in the world in his High Priestly prayer in John 17. But instead we find this text:

John 17:-9
9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

No universal prayer in this passage!

Or one would think that if the Father is universally drawing all men to his Son, that the Father would do that by universally revealing gospel truth to each and every person in the world; yet, once again we find Jesus saying:

Luke 8:10
And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'
ESV

IOW, "the secrets of the kingdom" were revealed only to God's elect. From everyone else, they were hidden!

Luke 10:21
21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
NIV

So...explain to me again how God is drawing the "wise and learned" of this world from whom He has hidden his truth -- making them incapable of understanding that which has been hidden from them. Therefore, Jn 12:32 (to which you originally alluded) cannot logically be interpreted in the distributive sense. The "all men" must understood in the limited sense, i.e. Christ will draw all the Father's elect -- Christ will draw all those to whom He has sovereignly revealed his Father. Christ will draw all those for whom he prayed in his High Priestly prayer.

And fret not about me. I'm on the rock solid ground of scripture. God is both FREE to save and FREE to not save, since no sinner is worthy of his grace, mercy, compassion or love. God is indebted to no one! In either case, His choice is righteous and just!

All the passages you cited?
Speak of people who had been drawn successfully.

Romans 1:18-25 reveals those who were drawn, but refused the drawing.

Here is vs 21-15.

​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, ​

but their thinking became futile, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they ​

claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God ​

for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.​

​

Therefore, God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for ​

the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, ​

and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.​

........

 

[Genez]

very well spoken. Have you heard of the seed war by chance?

No, I have not.
Is it fictional?

 

[Cameron143]

This saying clearly refers to the rendering of justice without prejudice.

[Deu 10:17 KJV]
For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

[Deu 16:19 KJV]
Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.

[2Ch 19:7 KJV]
Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do [it]: for [there is] no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

[Col 3:25 KJV]
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

[Jas 2:4 KJV]
Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

[1Pe 1:17 KJV]
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

They all have to do with choices. God says make choices righteously, and not in regard to persons.

 

[Rufus]

Now read the text below in that introduction to the letter to the Romans carefully.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Now read the second verse in the second chapter of Romans.

Romans 2:17
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God.

How anyone can ignore the underlying context of Romans 2 to 11, is staggering.

Given we have been reading the scripture for centuries.

There are two distinct groups in Romans, the Jews and the Gentiles.

Not the chosen and the unchosen.

Wrong. See Rom 1:7 which you keep ignoring. And what part of 1:13 can't you understand? Evidently, all of it since you ignore both of these passages, as well as the text in Rom 11 wherein Paul also addresses Gentile believers. In fact, Paul's indictment against all humanity includes Jews and Gentiles, since both are under sin!