Understanding God’s election

[cv5]

Both elect Jews and Gentiles choose salvation after they have been alive in Christ by God. Since the physically dead have no inherent ability, what makes you think that the spiritual dead have any?

Death = separation from God (yes, I know you have failed to understand this critical feature).
Total inability to be redeemed comes AFTER complete spiritual death which itself comes AFTER total separation from God.

This total, complete forevermore separation from God which occurs AFTER being cast into the lake of fire.

Men in this present state DO HAVE HOPE for redemption. This is obvious to anybody.

 

[HeIsHere]

No one should form a doctrine from a singular verse or passage. Neither should they ignore the full counsel of scripture, but compare scripture with scripture.

You have done so and reached doctrine you believe is correct. Others have done the same and disagree with your assessment. We all have to reconcile apparent contradictions. What makes sense to one doesn't always make sense to another.

When it comes to soteriology there is one truth and one plan and while @cv5 and I have some subtle differences do you not see there is a major gulf between ability and inability (born that way).

In my book whoever is wrong is teaching heresy, this is the fundamental/core truth upon which all other truths come together. There is no room for relativism here.

 

[cv5]

All died apart from Noah's family and only Noah was chosen to be saved.

There is nothing redeemable in humanity.

Of course there is redeemable humanity. Noah and his family certainly were.
So was Rahab and so were the Gibeonites, redeemed out of a different devastating judgement.

 

[Inquisitor]

Sure, man is responsible before God. Romans 1 makes this clear, as well as many other passages.

That's correct Cameroon, there is some level of human interaction all the way through.

Throughout the history of Christianity and the history of Israel.

Calvinists executed their opponents and their opponents did the same to Calvinists.

Mankind has behaved in ways that are incomprehensible in Christianity.

Does anyone understand the interplay between God's sovereignty and our choices well enough,
to explain it all to us. Without corrupting the letter to the Romans. I don't think so.

Does anyone have absolute knowledge?

Does anyone read the scripture properly without some interpretation?

 

[Cameron143]

I don't disagree with what your saying here.

It is a fact that the prime mover in salvation is Christ alone, I am a strong on the sovereignty of God.

Unfortunately, we are constant wresting within ourselves between serving Jesus and self fulfillment.

There are two playing fields in Romans, the sovereignty of God and mankind's choices.

Do we choose salvation as Gentiles?

Of course we don't and never could until Israel chose to oppose Jesus.

This is what Romans is teaching us.

Israel failed and were grafted out which enabled abundant grace for the Gentiles.

Israel were the original chosen people of God not the Gentiles.

The Gentiles were an unknown nation to make Israel jealous.

Paul is not giving a sermon on sovereignty.

Paul is explaining why Israel failed to achieve righteous through the law.

If you ignore the CONTEXT in Romans you will fail to understand what Paul is talking about.

You will end up being baptized into Calvinism just like the different groups in Corinth.

I agree what God's purpose is. Israel wasn't given the law for salvation. But everything you are explaining deals with decisions God unilaterally made. He chose Israel. They became His. God chose to place them in darkness. God chose to engraft Gentiles. All of these are sovereign actions.
I do believe this isn't isolated to God with nations, but does extend to individuals as well. We can discuss why if you like.

 

[Inquisitor]

Of course there is redeemable humanity. Noah and his family certainly were.
So was Rahab and so were the Gibeonites, redeemed out of a different devastating judgement.

The world was destroyed and the world will be destroyed again with fire.

Are you telling me that Noah and someone else say, could stand before God and declare
their own righteousness. You are deeply mistaken on this point.

Not before God Himself!

 

[Cameron143]

Wow, this is intense. Don't ya think?

This is relatively mild for here.

 

[Rufus]

They trusted in Gods promises, valued the promises, and chose to cling to The Promise.
That is what they had to do with it.
Which is exactly what WE have to do with it.

But Esau? He wanted NOTHING to do with it.

And there you go. No dizzy Calvinista nuttery required to figure this one out.

I know they trusted in temporal reality BECAUSE of God's ETERNAL electing decree. Read Rom 9. God gets the ultimate glory, not man -- a decree that neither Issac or Jacob had anything to do with! You keep ignoring Rom 9:16. Did you scratch that verse out of your bible?

And what about Ishmael and Esau? They never believed because God never decreed their salvation; so he left those two natural children to their own devices.

And you keep forgetting that God's eternal decrees had nothing to do with anyone's conduct. There's not one verse in scripture that says God makes his choices after he gazes into his cosmic crystal ball to see what man's choices are going to be. That's a belief borne out of Arminian nuttery.

 

[The_Parson]

This is relatively mild for here.

Okey dokey.... I'll just sit back and watch for a bit. Something else here on the board has got my attention.

 

[cv5]

The world was destroyed and the world will be destroyed again with fire.

Are you telling me that Noah and someone else say, could stand before God and declare
their own righteousness. You are deeply mistaken on this point.

Not before God Himself!

What?
God redeems fallen men. All those who call on His Name.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with declaring your own righteousness.

In fact if Noah did that, he would NOT have been redeemed!!!!!!

 

[cv5]

I know they trusted in temporal reality BECAUSE of God's ETERNAL electing decree. Read Rom 9. God gets the ultimate glory, not man -- a decree that neither Issac or Jacob had anything to do with! You keep ignoring Rom 9:16. Did you scratch that verse out of your bible?

And what about Ishmael and Esau? They never believed because God never decreed their salvation; so he left those two natural children to their own devices.

And you keep forgetting that God's eternal decrees had nothing to do with anyone's conduct. There's not one verse in scripture that says God makes his choices after he gazes into his cosmic crystal ball to see what man's choices are going to be. That's a belief borne out of Arminian nuttery.

Calvinista bafflegab is what you speak. Useless and worse than that clueless.

 

[Inquisitor]

I agree what God's purpose is. Israel wasn't given the law for salvation. But everything you are explaining deals with decisions God unilaterally made. He chose Israel. They became His. God chose to place them in darkness. God chose to engraft Gentiles. All of these are sovereign actions.
I do believe this isn't isolated to God with nations, but does extend to individuals as well. We can discuss why if you like.

The key point in this discussion is the incomprehensible ways of God.

The letter to the Romans is simply explaining why Israel failed.

You would be well advised to not repurpose Romans to proclaim the sovereignty
of God and salvation. In such away that ignores the high level of human response
expected by those who receive the gift.

The warnings throughout the New Testament are very real warnings.

It's not safe to go to either extreme in this debate but that's what people do.

 

[Rufus]

Death = separation from God (yes, I know you have failed to understand this critical feature).
Total inability to be redeemed comes AFTER complete spiritual death which itself comes AFTER total separation from God.

This total, complete forevermore separation from God which occurs AFTER being cast into the lake of fire.

Men in this present state DO HAVE HOPE for redemption. This is obvious to anybody.

It's you and your ilk who ignore and willfully misunderstand the metaphoric imagery of death. And in so doing, you completely ignore the ANALOGY that scripture makes between physical and spiritual death.

Also, spiritual death IS separation from God, just as physical death IS separation of the soul from the body.

Men do have hope for redemption if their hope is in God through Christ to actually save them.

 

[Cameron143]

When it comes to soteriology there is one truth and one plan and while @cv5 and I have some subtle differences do you not see there is a major gulf between ability and inability (born that way).

In my book whoever is wrong is teaching heresy, this is the fundamental/core truth upon which all other truths come together. There is no room for relativism here.

Why? The manner of salvation isn't a salvific issue. And since you know full well that every doctrine you espouse isn't correct because we all hold some truth in error, why don't you self identify as a heretic?

 

[Rufus]

Calvinista bafflegab is what you speak. Useless and worse than that clueless.

For someone who prides himself for being so learned and smart and spiritually savvy, why are so many of your posts written on the K-level of a little child? And I say this at the risk of insulting such children.

 

[Inquisitor]

What?
God redeems fallen men. All those who call on His Name.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with declaring your own righteousness.

In fact if Noah did that, he would NOT have been redeemed!!!!!!

You said, "Of course there is redeemable humanity. Noah and his family certainly were."

Then you said, "In fact if Noah did that, he would NOT have been redeemed".

You have redeemable humanity that cannot be declared as redeemable before God.

 

[Cameron143]

The key point in this discussion is the incomprehensible ways of God.

The letter to the Romans is simply explaining why Israel failed.

You would be well advised to not repurpose Romans to proclaim the sovereignty
of God and salvation. In such away that ignores the high level of human response
expected by those who receive the gift.

The warnings throughout the New Testament are very real warnings.

It's not safe to go to either extreme in this debate but that's what people do.

While I agree that Romans does address why Israel failed, it is hardly limited to Jews or simply their failure. And while we all should be careful to understand scripture in its original context, there is still application beyond the original audience.

 

[Rufus]

You said, "Of course there is redeemable humanity. Noah and his family certainly were."

Then you said, "In fact if Noah did that, he would NOT have been redeemed".

You have redeemable humanity that cannot be declared as redeemable before God.

CV5 is the master of doublespeak, not to mention eisegesis.

 

[cv5]

You said, "Of course there is redeemable humanity. Noah and his family certainly were."

Then you said, "In fact if Noah did that, he would NOT have been redeemed".

You have redeemable humanity that cannot be declared as redeemable before God.

What are you talking about man?
Noah DID NOT declare himself anything but a sinner in need of redemption.
Every saved soul makes the same confession.

"In fact if Noah did that, he would NOT have been redeemed!!!!!!"

What is "that"? Declare himself righteous. To do so is a death sentence.

 

[Rufus]

Inquisitor said:


The key point in this discussion is the incomprehensible ways of God.

The letter to the Romans is simply explaining why Israel failed.

But Rom 9:6 is about how God did not fail with respect to Israel.