Understanding God’s election

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Rufus

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Wrong again ..Jesus never states regeneration before belief.
Wrong! See Jesus' teaching to Nicodemus in John 3. Also, see the unilateral, unconditional NC promises of the Spirit, life and new heart.

For that matter...take due note of Jesus' mild rebuke of Nicodemus for failing to understand the new birth from above. Nicodemus should have given the NC promises contained in Ezek 36 & 37.
 

Cameron143

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Wrong again ..Jesus never states regeneration before belief.
Neither does He say it doesn't occur before belief. Every scripture and passage doesn't deal with every doctrine. Ommissions can simply mean a particular doctrine isn't in view.
 
Oct 28, 2024
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Every scripture and passage doesn't deal with every doctrine.
Yes, for example ...
Not every passage about the baptism with the Holy Spirit
(most of these are in Acts) mentions tongues, which is the
confirmation that a person has received this baptism of
power and anointing ... administered by Jesus Himself.
(This is totally different than the born-again experience.)
 

GWH

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I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …


Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!


Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …

“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)

God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.

“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).


The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.
Re Understanding God’s Election, the OP cites several Scriptures.

RM 3:9-18 says that all humanity are sinners or bent on sinning instead of following God’s law through which we become aware of sin, but it does NOT say, man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, because the disobedience of Adam and Eve caused all humans to be born with an inherited sin nature and thus having a saving faith is against their very nature.

2TM 2:26 says that all unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan, bent on doing whatever he wants them to do, and LK 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free.

ACTS 16:14 says that God opened Lydia’s heart so she could respond to Paul’s message, and surely everyone else needs God’s grace also, and JN 3:16 indicates that God gives everyone the grace to believe in Jesus and have saving faith.

JN 15:16 reports Jesus saying “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.” MT 1:16 records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.

RM 9:11-16 says that God’s purpose ion election is for salvation not to be by means of works or human effort but by God having mercy on whom He wants or chooses.

God wants all to be saved per 1TM 2:3-4, but apparently some, many and even most people reject His calling (MT 22:14).

2PT 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but wants everyone to repent, but 2THS 2:10 says some perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved.

RM 9:22-23 indicates that God could have chosen to condemn everyone to show his power, but some are shown mercy, presumably those who did NOT refuse to love the truth.

Those not chosen or shown mercy are given the justice they deserve, but the elect are saved as long as they persevere in loving the truth or having faith in Christ.
 
Oct 28, 2024
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ACTS 16:14 says that God opened Lydia’s heart so she could respond to Paul’s message, and surely everyone else needs God’s grace also
Of course everyone needs God's initial grace to be able to be saved and go to heaven.
This is a fundamental and foundational Truth.
Butski, how is this to be accomplished?
No additional grace is required, if people choose to believe in the Gospel.
But, additional grace is required ...
because man is totally incapable of choosing to believe in the Gospel.
Please see the thread, "WHY man is unable to choose Jesus and the Gospel".
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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@cv5
Indeed people choose to perish day in and day out. Tragic but not unexpected.
Actually God made the choice on whether a person perishes or not. To understand Gods election, we understand His rejection, all whom He didn't choose to save, He chose to damn for their sins.
 

GWH

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Oct 19, 2024
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@cv5


Actually God made the choice on whether a person perishes or not. To understand Gods election, we understand His rejection, all whom He didn't choose to save, He chose to damn for their sins.
Actually, God created the choice between good and evil (DT 19:30), but to understand election we need to understand God's all-loving or righteous nature, which means souls who reject God's love/grace damn effectively themselves.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Actually, God created the choice between good and evil (DT 19:30), but to understand election we need to understand God's all-loving or righteous nature, which means souls who reject God's love/grace damn effectively themselves.
Actually God made the choice on whether a person perishes or not. To understand Gods election, we understand His rejection, all whom He didn't choose to save, He chose to damn for their sins.
 

Rufus

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Re Understanding God’s Election, the OP cites several Scriptures.

RM 3:9-18 says that all humanity are sinners or bent on sinning instead of following God’s law through which we become aware of sin, but it does NOT say, man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, because the disobedience of Adam and Eve caused all humans to be born with an inherited sin nature and thus having a saving faith is against their very nature.

2TM 2:26 says that all unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan, bent on doing whatever he wants them to do, and LK 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free.

ACTS 16:14 says that God opened Lydia’s heart so she could respond to Paul’s message, and surely everyone else needs God’s grace also, and JN 3:16 indicates that God gives everyone the grace to believe in Jesus and have saving faith.

JN 15:16 reports Jesus saying “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.” MT 1:16 records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.

RM 9:11-16 says that God’s purpose ion election is for salvation not to be by means of works or human effort but by God having mercy on whom He wants or chooses.

God wants all to be saved per 1TM 2:3-4, but apparently some, many and even most people reject His calling (MT 22:14).

2PT 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but wants everyone to repent, but 2THS 2:10 says some perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved.

RM 9:22-23 indicates that God could have chosen to condemn everyone to show his power, but some are shown mercy, presumably those who did NOT refuse to love the truth.

Those not chosen or shown mercy are given the justice they deserve, but the elect are saved as long as they persevere in loving the truth or having faith in Christ.
You might want to connect Rom 9:22-23 to:

Rom 9:16a
16 It does NOT, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort...

NIV

What part of "not" can't you understand? The entire emphasis in Rom 9 is on God's Sovereiegn decree on whom he has mercy and compassion, AND whom he does NOT! Not a thing in Rom 9 is contingent on man's "free" will.

2Pet 3:9 is interpreted out of context and doesn't prove what you think it does. You're another one who doesn't pay attention to to who the original audience is or to personal pronouns. Context matters!

Ditto for 1Tim 2:3-4 -- again -- interpreted out of context.

And just because Rom 3:9-18 doesn't explicitly teach the doctrine of Total Depravity, nonetheless all the statements Paul makes in the passage are UNQUALIFED -- and rightfully so, since Rom 3 is the apostle's universal indictment upon all mankind -- Jews and Gentiles alike! There's no difference between the two groups.

Context really does matter!
 

Rufus

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Actually, God created the choice between good and evil (DT 19:30), but to understand election we need to understand God's all-loving or righteous nature, which means souls who reject God's love/grace damn effectively themselves.
The first thing you need to understand is to get your bible cites right. There is no such animal in scripture as Deut 19:30.
 

Rufus

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2 Peter 3
3:1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to YOU. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate YOU to wholesome thinking. 2 I want YOU to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

So, who are the "you" in the above two verses:

2 Peter 1:1
1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,


To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
NIV

And,

1 Peter 1:1-2
1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,


To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
NIV

Back to 2Pet 3:

3 First of all, YOU must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone [i.e. any of you] to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

14 So then, dear friends, since YOU are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since YOU already know this, be on your guard so that YOU may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
NIV

Here's my brief exposition of this passage which I wrote several months ago on another thread:

You're misunderstanding 2 Pet 3. God is patient toward the elect, not the world. You have to pay close attention to the pronouns and the terms of endearment that Peter uses in this passage. Who are the people he's addressing in v. 11, v.12, v.13? And who are the "dear friends" in vv. 8, 14 and 17? And in v. 9, who is God patient towards -- who are the 'you" in this verse: the world or the Jewish believers to whom Peter was writing? If Paul is saying in v. 9 that God doesn't want anyone in the entire world to perish, then why didn't Peter say that God is patient with the entire world? It seems to me that God would be patient toward those he doesn't want to perish. Peter was writing to believers who were in danger of falling away due to all the false teaching they were receiving. In fact, Peter exhorts his brothers strongly in 1:10 to be all the more eager to make "your calling and election sure". Hence, why God wants them to come to repentance (3:9).

Also, if Peter was saying that God doesn't want anyone in the entire world to perish, then why didn't he warn the entire world to "not be carried away by the error of lawless men" (v.17)? Instead, Peter warns God's elect!

Also, if Peter had written in v. 9 that God doesn't "want any of you to perish) (instead of anyone), it would not change the sense of the passage since the "anyone", "you" and "dear friends" in the context, is the original audience to whom Peter was writing.
 

cv5

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Actually God made the choice on whether a person perishes or not. To understand Gods election, we understand His rejection, all whom He didn't choose to save, He chose to damn for their sins.
[Luk 13:7 KJV]
Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

[Luk 13:8 KJV]
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]:

[Luk 13:9 KJV]
And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.
 

cv5

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@cv5


Actually God made the choice on whether a person perishes or not. To understand Gods election, we understand His rejection, all whom He didn't choose to save, He chose to damn for their sins.
[Luk 7:29 KJV]
And all the people that heard [him], and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

[Luk 7:30 KJV]
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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@cv5


Actually God made the choice on whether a person perishes or not. To understand Gods election, we understand His rejection, all whom He didn't choose to save, He chose to damn for their sins.
[Mat 13:44 KJV]
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when *** a man*** hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

[Mat 13:45 KJV]
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant ***man***, seeking goodly pearls:

[Mat 13:46 KJV]
Who, when ***he*** had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
 

Rufus

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[Luk 7:29 KJV]
And all the people that heard [him], and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

[Luk 7:30 KJV]
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Great example of God making two lumps of clay our of one in Rom 9! The first "lump" in v.29 God predestined to be used for noble purposes (cf. also Act 13:48)); whereas the second lump in v.30, God predestined to be used for common purposes (cf. also 1Pet 2:8).
 

Rufus

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[Mat 13:44 KJV]
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when *** a man*** hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

[Mat 13:45 KJV]
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant ***man***, seeking goodly pearls:

[Mat 13:46 KJV]
Who, when ***he*** had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
We must understand parables in light of clear, didactic teachings! The "merchant man" seeks pearls because God is drawing him toward the "pearl of great price", i.e. Christ. He also seeking because Christ revealed the Father to the merchant man. The "merchant man" in the parable is no different from how Peter found the precious pearl!
 

Genez

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Thats absolutely false, to grant does not mean to allow and or give a chance. The word is didōmi and its prominent meaning is:

  1. to give
  2. to give something to someone
    1. of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage
      1. to bestow a gift
    2. to grant, give to one asking, let have
    3. to supply, furnish, necessary things
    4. to give over, deliver
In Acts 11:18 it meas:

to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18;

Its a New Covenant blessing Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So, in the context of what I was responding to?
Which was -

Yes Gods Elect, but not just jews it includes Gentile elect also Acts 11:18
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

He has GIVEN them repentance?
In other words?
They are sock puppets???

Something was apparently lost in the translation of what was cited, if what you said is to apply.
 

GWH

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You might want to connect Rom 9:22-23 to:

Rom 9:16a
16 It does NOT, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort...

NIV

What part of "not" can't you understand? The entire emphasis in Rom 9 is on God's Sovereiegn decree on whom he has mercy and compassion, AND whom he does NOT! Not a thing in Rom 9 is contingent on man's "free" will.

2Pet 3:9 is interpreted out of context and doesn't prove what you think it does. You're another one who doesn't pay attention to to who the original audience is or to personal pronouns. Context matters!

Ditto for 1Tim 2:3-4 -- again -- interpreted out of context.

And just because Rom 3:9-18 doesn't explicitly teach the doctrine of Total Depravity, nonetheless all the statements Paul makes in the passage are UNQUALIFED -- and rightfully so, since Rom 3 is the apostle's universal indictment upon all mankind -- Jews and Gentiles alike! There's no difference between the two groups.

Context really does matter!
Indeed it does, and here is the pertinent context IMO, which I now have on my website under Controversial Issues, so thanks to y'all for helping me to clarify my understanding of Scripture regarding this topic:

The doctrine of election can be harmonized with the doctrine of an all-loving God by rightly understanding the meaning of “in Christ” in Ephesians 1:3-23.

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all thins in heaven and on earh together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And yo also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

In the EPH passage we can see that what the all-loving God predestined was NOOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for, if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ

And Rufus, regarding me saying DT 19:30 instead of 30:19: Good catch. That's what I get for going by memory with my memory. I TOLD you I was fallible!
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Indeed it does, and here is the pertinent context IMO, which I now have on my website under Controversial Issues, so thanks to y'all for helping me to clarify my understanding of Scripture regarding this topic:

The doctrine of election can be harmonized with the doctrine of an all-loving God by rightly understanding the meaning of “in Christ” in Ephesians 1:3-23.

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all thins in heaven and on earh together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And yo also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

In the EPH passage we can see that what the all-loving God predestined was NOOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for, if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ

And Rufus, regarding me saying DT 19:30 instead of 30:19: Good catch. That's what I get for going by memory with my memory. I TOLD you I was fallible!
Unfortunately, bringing Eph 1:3-23 to bear upon Rom 9 does not harmonize with Rom 9:16, which clearly teaches that man's will is not involved in God's sovereign decrees of election.

And I categorically reject the heresy that God is merely a potential savior! God actually SAVES all those whom he has predestined (also cf. Rom 8:28-30). He saved Issac and Jacob in Rom 9 by decreeing that they would participate in his covenant promises to Abraham, didn't he? But God also predestined that Ishmael and Esau would not participate in those covenant promises, so they remained the earthly, natural children of Abraham according to only the flesh.

Also, to be "in Christ" or "in Him" is precisely to be no longer in Adam since we're in the Last Adam. Don't forget: God ordained Adam to be the Federal Head of the entire human race; whereas the Last Adam is the Federal Head of all the Father has given to Him. Once a believer is in the Last Adam, he is no longer in the original Adam who is a type of Christ by contrasts.

As far as Deut 30:19 goes that command denotes man's moral responsibility which he cannot execute since [spiritual] LIFE is found only in the Lord per the text. Obviously, the spiritually dead have no ability to obey since all human beings come into this world SEPARATED from the Life of God, which is how everyone is spiritually dead! Death always logically presupposes antecedent life.
 

Rufus

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So, in the context of what I was responding to?
Which was -

Yes Gods Elect, but not just jews it includes Gentile elect also Acts 11:18
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

He has GIVEN them repentance?
In other words?
They are sock puppets???

Something was apparently lost in the translation of what was cited, if what you said is to apply.
So that is what the proud and arrogant think of helpless people: You mock the helpless and powerless with derogatory terms, i.e. "sock puppets"? Is that what the ancient, helpless Israelites were when they were in Egypt?