Do you think it is possible to reason/dialogue a person out of their indoctrination?
Understanding God’s election
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Do you think it is possible to reason/dialogue a person out of their indoctrination?
No, but because it does not ignore like you do:
TOP #19: On Judgment Day God will enforce just punishment via souls reaping what they have sown or done. [RM 2:5-6, cf. TOP #83] Punishment is just because God does not show favoritism (EPH 6:9, COL 3:25, 1PT 1:17).
TOP #221: God is just. [2THS 1:6] HB 6:10 says that God is not unjust, EPH 6:9 defines justness as not showing favoritism and RM 3:25-26 says that God demonstrates his justice.
TOP #231: God wants everyone to be saved or believe the true faith that there is one God and one mediator, who is the man, Christ Jesus. [1TM 2:3-7] This is perhaps the most foundational passage in the TOP.
Not based upon attempts with the TULIPists on this thread!
I do acknowledge the need for perseverance and that with God all things are possible,
but I also realize that both Jesus (in Matt. 13:14-15) and Paul (in Acts 28:26-27) expressed frustration
with those who are closed-minded.
Good answer and generally agree.
The challenge is the "group" dynamics which reinforce and create the herd mentality reinforcing a very wrong doctrine of regeneration prior salvation.
When a doctrine is so obviously wrong and people double down I tend to think it is a psychological thing.
Miscellaneous Thoughts on the Exodus...
What Came First: The Chicken or the Egg?
Any honest interpreter of the Exodus account can see immediately that God's declaration to Moses re Pharaoh's heart chronologically (and logically) preceded Pharaoh's willingness to harden his own heart (cf. Ex 4: 21; 7:3) The first time the narrative mentions Pharaoh and/or his officials hardening their own hearts occurs in Ex 8:15, 32; 9:34. But very clearly the emphasis in the Exodus story is on God's role in hardening the kings's heart, so in addition to the two citations above, we have these passages as well: Ex 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17, Josh 11:20; Ps 105: 23-25. When we do the math we find 12 references to God's sovereign role to only 3 references to the king's subsequent response -- a whopping 4-1 ratio! Yes, Pharoah freely and willingly chose to be obstainate, stubborn and stiff-necked towards Israel as a result of God's eternal purpose for which He raised up the king. The fact that scripture three times attributes the conditon of the kings's heart to him himself is a clear biblical testimony to the seamless and subtle integration of Pharaoh's will with God's! The two wills were NEVER at odds with each other. They were totally compatible! God wrote and directed this actor's role on God's world stage, and this royal actor willingly played his part. The more restraining grace God removed from Pharaoh's heart, the more prideful, arrogant and self-willed the king became! The less divine, spiritual grace that functioned in Pharaoh's naturally evil heart, the more fleshly and wicked he became! This becomes very obvious after the king decided to chase the Israelites down with his army to the Red Sea -- and this in spite of all that he and his officials had witnessed first hand of God's awesome power when He unleashed all His plauges upon Egypt.
Of course, the Exodus story is an excellent illustration of the doctrine of God's sovereignty taught in Prov 21:1.
More on the Exodus account in a separate post....
What Came First: The Chicken or the Egg?
Any honest interpreter of the Exodus account can see immediately that God's declaration to Moses re Pharaoh's heart chronologically (and logically) preceded Pharaoh's willingness to harden his own heart (cf. Ex 4: 21; 7:3) The first time the narrative mentions Pharaoh and/or his officials hardening their own hearts occurs in Ex 8:15, 32; 9:34. But very clearly the emphasis in the Exodus story is on God's role in hardening the kings's heart, so in addition to the two citations above, we have these passages as well: Ex 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17, Josh 11:20; Ps 105: 23-25. When we do the math we find 12 references to God's sovereign role to only 3 references to the king's subsequent response -- a whopping 4-1 ratio! Yes, Pharoah freely and willingly chose to be obstainate, stubborn and stiff-necked towards Israel as a result of God's eternal purpose for which He raised up the king. The fact that scripture three times attributes the conditon of the kings's heart to him himself is a clear biblical testimony to the seamless and subtle integration of Pharaoh's will with God's! The two wills were NEVER at odds with each other. They were totally compatible! God wrote and directed this actor's role on God's world stage, and this royal actor willingly played his part. The more restraining grace God removed from Pharaoh's heart, the more prideful, arrogant and self-willed the king became! The less divine, spiritual grace that functioned in Pharaoh's naturally evil heart, the more fleshly and wicked he became! This becomes very obvious after the king decided to chase the Israelites down with his army to the Red Sea -- and this in spite of all that he and his officials had witnessed first hand of God's awesome power when He unleashed all His plauges upon Egypt.
Of course, the Exodus story is an excellent illustration of the doctrine of God's sovereignty taught in Prov 21:1.
More on the Exodus account in a separate post....
The only thing that is obvously wrong your man-made theology that would have us believe the dead have any power to do anything. Why can't you understand that Death must be swallowed up by Life before anyone can make any motion towards God? Read Ezekiel 37 some day.
Just yesterday they reiterated their rejection of being made alive in Christ while dead.
Because spiritually dead and completely incapable -as a natural man- to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God is also rejected by them, despite Scripture being quite clear on these points. They say the natural man is equipped to hear even though Jesus, again explicitly, states that not everyone hears. To them, that bad tree can produce good fruit despite Jesus saying it cannot.
As non Calvinist has been noted to say ....
“It is not the healthy people who need a doctor, but the sick.” - Jesus
If only a Calvinist existed in the 1st century, he could have corrected Jesus by yelling, “MEN AREN’T SICK THEY’RE DEAD!”
To suggest that God made us such that we can believe the words of any book except His, is absurd.
The gospel is sent to dead, lost, sinful people so as to call them to life and reconciliation and there is no biblical reason to suggest the gospel is insufficient to accomplish that end.
When someone rejects the gospel we shouldn’t blame that on
(1) God by suggesting He didn’t really want them or
(2) an innate condition decreed by God making them morally incapable of believing the gospel.
It’s their fault alone for rejecting an actual provision of His grace, which they could have and should have received.
FULL STOP!
(Thank you Leighton F.)
The gospel is sent to dead, lost, sinful people so as to call them to life and reconciliation and there is no biblical reason to suggest the gospel is insufficient to accomplish that end.
When someone rejects the gospel we shouldn’t blame that on
(1) God by suggesting He didn’t really want them or
(2) an innate condition decreed by God making them morally incapable of believing the gospel.
It’s their fault alone for rejecting an actual provision of His grace, which they could have and should have received.
FULL STOP!
(Thank you Leighton F.)
There is no reason to reject the fact that the natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God.
And yet you do. In your theology, the bad tree can produce good fruit.
Even though Jesus said it could not.
In your theology, God is unfair to reveal Himself in any way differently from
one person to the next... despite the Bible being filled with such instances.
Didn't Paul live in the 1st century?As non Calvinist has been noted to say ....
“It is not the healthy people who need a doctor, but the sick.” - Jesus
If only a Calvinist existed in the 1st century, he could have corrected Jesus by yelling, “MEN AREN’T SICK THEY’RE DEAD!”
The Doctrine of Israel's Separableness from the World in the Exodus Story
Ex 3:7-10
7 The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey — the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt."
NIV
....my [covenant] people the Israelites" are whom the Lord came down to rescue! Egypt is nowhere to be found on God's salvation radar. (So much for GWH's absurd fantasy of "omnilove".
) If this were true then "omnilove" would demand omnipurpose, omnitreatment and omniredemption, which clearly did not happen with the Egyptians. Quite the contrary! God himself clearly made a distinction between his chosen, covenant people and Egypt (cf. Ex 8:23; 9:4; 11:17) which was a type of godless world under the control of the "god of this age", i.e. Pharaoh who himself was a type of Satan. So...God omitted Egypt from his plan of redemption just as Jesus explicitly omitted the "world" from his high priestly prayer to his Father (Jn 17:9). (How's that for harmonization of scripture, FWers?)
Furthermore, while God dealt graciously, kindly and lovingly toward his chosen people with whom he purposed to redeem from the Land of Darkness and Slavery, he dealt very differently with the Egyptians (Ex 10:1), whose hearts he had turned against his people (Ps 105:23-25).
More compelling evidence for this God-ordained distinction (or separableness) of his people from Egypt is found in the institution of the Passover Feast, to which only the chosen, covenant people of God (notwithstanding the provisions that were made for foreigners who wanted to permanently join the community of Israelites) were invited to participate in if they wanted to escape the Angel of Death. There was no provision made for Egyptians to participate in the Passover Supper because God had already determined to put all the firstborn (humans and animals) of every Egyptian to death!
Since Moses also led "many" foreigners" (Gentiles) out of Egypt (Ex 12:38) and freed them from their dark prisons (Isa 42:7; 49:9), these Gentiles are a type of Abraham's spiritual descendants, i.e. "children of promise". They foreshadowed the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant which, of course, is being fulfilled under this New Covenant economy.
Therefore, the evidence is extremely compelling that when we read of the "world" in the NT, we should not think in quantitative terms but rather in qualitative terms; for neither the Father, the Son or God-fearing, pious Jews ever considered Israel to be part of the world. Since Jews have divinely been excluded from the Gentile nations, then they become the EXCEPTION to any possible universal understanding of the the Gr. term "kosmos". If God so loved the world (all humanity w/o exception), then there can be no exceptions. "All" in the quatitiative/distributive sense can only literally mean ALL -- not just most or many or a few.
Ex 3:7-10
7 The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey — the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt."
NIV
....my [covenant] people the Israelites" are whom the Lord came down to rescue! Egypt is nowhere to be found on God's salvation radar. (So much for GWH's absurd fantasy of "omnilove".
) If this were true then "omnilove" would demand omnipurpose, omnitreatment and omniredemption, which clearly did not happen with the Egyptians. Quite the contrary! God himself clearly made a distinction between his chosen, covenant people and Egypt (cf. Ex 8:23; 9:4; 11:17) which was a type of godless world under the control of the "god of this age", i.e. Pharaoh who himself was a type of Satan. So...God omitted Egypt from his plan of redemption just as Jesus explicitly omitted the "world" from his high priestly prayer to his Father (Jn 17:9). (How's that for harmonization of scripture, FWers?)Furthermore, while God dealt graciously, kindly and lovingly toward his chosen people with whom he purposed to redeem from the Land of Darkness and Slavery, he dealt very differently with the Egyptians (Ex 10:1), whose hearts he had turned against his people (Ps 105:23-25).
More compelling evidence for this God-ordained distinction (or separableness) of his people from Egypt is found in the institution of the Passover Feast, to which only the chosen, covenant people of God (notwithstanding the provisions that were made for foreigners who wanted to permanently join the community of Israelites) were invited to participate in if they wanted to escape the Angel of Death. There was no provision made for Egyptians to participate in the Passover Supper because God had already determined to put all the firstborn (humans and animals) of every Egyptian to death!
Since Moses also led "many" foreigners" (Gentiles) out of Egypt (Ex 12:38) and freed them from their dark prisons (Isa 42:7; 49:9), these Gentiles are a type of Abraham's spiritual descendants, i.e. "children of promise". They foreshadowed the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant which, of course, is being fulfilled under this New Covenant economy.
Therefore, the evidence is extremely compelling that when we read of the "world" in the NT, we should not think in quantitative terms but rather in qualitative terms; for neither the Father, the Son or God-fearing, pious Jews ever considered Israel to be part of the world. Since Jews have divinely been excluded from the Gentile nations, then they become the EXCEPTION to any possible universal understanding of the the Gr. term "kosmos". If God so loved the world (all humanity w/o exception), then there can be no exceptions. "All" in the quatitiative/distributive sense can only literally mean ALL -- not just most or many or a few.
Oh right..... let's see Jesus taught Paul people are born as corpses and not only that but blind corpses,however, that is insufficient guard the gates of eternal life, lest one turns and is forgiven, so they are also blinded by Satan!!!
You are just assuming your meaning onto the word and expecting me to just accept it.
ROFL! So...even though this time around you include v.7, you conveniently overlook the very inconvenient truth in v. 7 wherein Paul himself LIMITS "all men" to the Gentiles to whom God appointed him to preach the Gospel. 1Tim 2:3-7 harmonizes quite nicely with the biblical doctrines of Limited Atonement...AND the Separableness of Israel from the Gentile Nations. The only way anyone can honestly and logically deduce "all men" to mean w/o exception is if Paul had included the Jews in v. 7. But alas for you...he did not! Since Paul excluded Israel, then Israel becomes the FWers very much unwanted exception to "all men" w/o exception. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
And how could God ever show favoritism to any man, since all men w/o exception are sinners!? What would be the basis of such favoritism? Can't be race or ethnicity either since God is saving people from every tribe, language, people and nation (Rev 5:9). So, how do you come up with "favoritism?
You neglected to mention deaf, also. You know deaf? As in incapable of hearing?
Jesus identified those who cannot hear. He also came to give sight to the blind.
We are made alive in Him. You did not start out as spiritually alive.
But you have people who are inherently hostile to God choosing to believe that which they can neither receive nor comprehend.